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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:16 am 
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E^Ri wrote:
Ok guys come on...
The only difference between a c kite and a bow/hybrid is how the kite reacts the moment you unhook.
I don't agree, I think there are very clear differences in several areas.
E^Ri wrote:
C kite design is based around the old two line kite model that is designed to fly without the need for sheeting, so when you unhook they continue to fly forward at the same speed.
I agree LEI C Kites were designed to fly correctly sheeted in or sheeted out.
They didn't depower much then, ..and obviously the new wider tipped bridled C Kites depower pretty well now but still obviously a lot less than bow/hybrid designs.
E^Ri wrote:
Inversely, bow/hybrid kites require constant adjustments in sheeting to continue to fly right unless the wind is perfect. So when you unhook, a bow/hybrid will tend to have too much back line pressure and begin to slow down/fall back in the window, that is why they feel like a truck pulling downwind, and they will likely backstall if you don't hook back in and sheet out.
I disagree.
Bow/Hybrid/SLE kites were designed to fly correctly sheeted in, but also designed to depower far more, able to fly correctly with the large change in AOA, made possible by longer bar sheeting stroke, accomplished by designing a flatter canopy shape with bridles and pulleys.
My first Bow type kite flew forward just fine fully sheeted in, ..but sure didn't turn like a C kite, based on it's design concept.
Most bows and deltas don't generate much power through the turns though, as most of us know.
You can kill the power in any kite and slow it down, if you continue to apply lots of edge pressure after it has moved as far forward as it will.
Trying to point a board too high for too long will do it, you can bring a kite to a dead standstill if you are strong enough.

E^Ri wrote:
When it comes to pop all that matters is the power of a kite. So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window.
They all shoot forward when you load 'em, it's just a question of how much.
Obviously some kites sit further back than others.
A high depower kite (Bow/SLE/Hybrid) generally sits further forward in the window while flying along and really sits forward when flying sheeted out.
E^Ri wrote:
Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite.
I disagree.
I think slack varies a lot from one kite model/style to another.
E^Ri wrote:
All that matters is that you pop hard enough to load the lines up and accelerate forward faster than the kite is moving forward. So the faster you go and the harder you pop, the more slack you get.
Yup.
E^Ri wrote:
Since a bow starts to slow down and sit back it is sometimes harder to hold your line and load the lines, so your pop gets thrown off, resulting in less slack.
Not sure I understand this.
I thought it had more to do with the more forward flying kites moving faster (sooner) to pulling after you pop, so less slack and for a shorter time period.


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:32 am 
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E^Ri wrote:
fdvj wrote:
Not sure you can blame a bridle for this. If you are riding with your bar against the CL before you un hook then the act of unhooking will not make any difference to the kite at all. It is not the bridle that makes the kite behave in the way you describe it is more the fact that the bridle allows you to design a kite that will fly over a larger range of angle of attack. This is also why bridled kites can be perceived to have more grunt/ range. If you were to put a bridle on a true c kite its ability to perform would not alter but some would argue it feel different.


Yes you are correct. In my comparison I referred to a bridle kite as in a bow. I should have just said bow. These days with all the "hybrid" shapes, bridled kites have been getting closer and closer to c kite performance. With bridled kites like the RPM I can barely tell a difference unless I switch from one to the other in the same session. So yes, it is not the bridle necessarily, thanks for catching that.


OT: I read you use RPM, how do you tune it?

I have problems with my 9 meter, I feel like it has too much power when you unhook also when not overpowered...I can load it very well and get a lot of pop ( maybe too much ), but it slacks just for a little little while and then it comes back in the w.w. with so much speed and power...I don't know but It seems like I have too much backlines tension also if the kite is really really depowered...


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:22 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
Ok guys come on...
The only difference between a c kite and a bow/hybrid is how the kite reacts the moment you unhook.
I don't agree, I think there are very clear differences in several areas.

Correct, I was referring to the area of unhooked tricks.

Oldnbroken wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
Inversely, bow/hybrid kites require constant adjustments in sheeting to continue to fly right unless the wind is perfect. So when you unhook, a bow/hybrid will tend to have too much back line pressure and begin to slow down/fall back in the window, that is why they feel like a truck pulling downwind, and they will likely backstall if you don't hook back in and sheet out.
I disagree. Bow/Hybrid/SLE kites were designed to fly correctly sheeted in.

Have you ever tried to recover from a backstall without hooking in? Or start from stopped and do power strokes unhooked? Not saying they all can't but definitely not as well as a c kite. Again in my comparison I was trying to discuss black and white. Hybrids are a grey area.

Oldnbroken wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
When it comes to pop all that matters is the power of a kite. So what gives a kite power? It's the apparent wind flowing across the canopy. So when you load a c kite, just like a two line kite, it shoots forward in the wind window.
They all shoot forward when you load 'em, it's just a question of how much.
Obviously some kites sit further back than others.
A high depower kite (Bow/SLE/Hybrid) generally sits further forward in the window while flying along and really sits forward when flying sheeted out.

Yeah most kites shoot forward to some extent, but a lot are hardly noticeable. Also everything I have said in this thread refers specifically to unhooked performace. So I don't find SLEs flying farther forward in the window unhooked unless you depower them.

Oldnbroken wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
Now slack... again has nothing to do with the kite.
I disagree. I think slack varies a lot from one kite model/style to another.

yes slack varies. I meant that it is possible to get some sort of slack on any kite.

Oldnbroken wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
Since a bow starts to slow down and sit back it is sometimes harder to hold your line and load the lines, so your pop gets thrown off, resulting in less slack.
Not sure I understand this. I thought it had more to do with the more forward flying kites moving faster (sooner) to pulling after you pop, so less slack and for a shorter time period.

If a kite moves forward faster then it is placed more in front of you and it is easier to direct your trajectory towards it to get slack. So when it sits back farther your trajectory won't be towards it as much and that causes more tension in the lines.

Your comments have really got me thinking. You can never be 100% certain with complicated things like this and I am only one point of view, so I will be thinking of what you said from now on when I am riding.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:30 am 
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alex85 wrote:
OT: I read you use RPM, how do you tune it?

I have problems with my 9 meter, I feel like it has too much power when you unhook also when not overpowered...I can load it very well and get a lot of pop ( maybe too much ), but it slacks just for a little little while and then it comes back in the w.w. with so much speed and power...I don't know but It seems like I have too much backlines tension also if the kite is really really depowered...


not overpowered but too much power? Sounds like you are trying to hold too much of an upwind line. When you unhook let off your edge and go down wind just a little bit before you try to load. Also, kite control is a must, this is the hardest thing, even for pros. If your kite turns up or is too high you will reduce the amount of slack.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:05 pm 
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E^Ri wrote:
alex85 wrote:
OT: I read you use RPM, how do you tune it?

I have problems with my 9 meter, I feel like it has too much power when you unhook also when not overpowered...I can load it very well and get a lot of pop ( maybe too much ), but it slacks just for a little little while and then it comes back in the w.w. with so much speed and power...I don't know but It seems like I have too much backlines tension also if the kite is really really depowered...


not overpowered but too much power? Sounds like you are trying to hold too much of an upwind line. When you unhook let off your edge and go down wind just a little bit before you try to load. Also, kite control is a must, this is the hardest thing, even for pros. If your kite turns up or is too high you will reduce the amount of slack.


Ok,ok...then can you explain me why in some videos, before unhooking, I see pro riders going downind a lot ( they almost carve toeside ) and in other videos you can hardly recognize that they release the edge before unhookin?for sure it's about the wind speed or the power on the kite, bur do you know how it works and what happens to the kite with the two differents tecniques???thanks a lot for all the tips!!!


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:11 am 
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Most likely power because if you are underpowered and you bear off too much you loose a lot of speed but I think there is an element of every rider being a little different in their technique.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:05 am 
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alex85 wrote:
E^Ri wrote:
alex85 wrote:
OT: I read you use RPM, how do you tune it?

I have problems with my 9 meter, I feel like it has too much power when you unhook also when not overpowered...I can load it very well and get a lot of pop ( maybe too much ), but it slacks just for a little little while and then it comes back in the w.w. with so much speed and power...I don't know but It seems like I have too much backlines tension also if the kite is really really depowered...


not overpowered but too much power? Sounds like you are trying to hold too much of an upwind line. When you unhook let off your edge and go down wind just a little bit before you try to load. Also, kite control is a must, this is the hardest thing, even for pros. If your kite turns up or is too high you will reduce the amount of slack.


Ok,ok...then can you explain me why in some videos, before unhooking, I see pro riders going downind a lot ( they almost carve toeside ) and in other videos you can hardly recognize that they release the edge before unhookin?for sure it's about the wind speed or the power on the kite, bur do you know how it works and what happens to the kite with the two differents tecniques???thanks a lot for all the tips!!!


It's all about wind speed. The more overpowered you are the longer you can hold that edge. Remember as stomp an the kite shoots forward just like sheeting. In stronger winds the kite sits deeper so you have more time to build a powerful pop. All so you have to consider where your board is and what your speed is. More of downwind cut will allow you to have a more controlled speed as you edge into your load. It will all so allow you to sink more so you wont start skipping sideways.

If I'm riding powered when I go to unhook I go straight to the kite unhook edge edge edge pop. It feels more like I'm at the cable.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:23 pm 
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Sorry the Joe but I can't completly understand what you writed:

TheJoe wrote:
It's all about wind speed. The more overpowered you are the longer you can hold that edge.


What edge are you meaning?

TheJoe wrote:
In stronger winds the kite sits deeper.


Is not the opposite?

TheJoe wrote:
More of downwind cut will allow you to have a more controlled speed as you edge into your load. It will all so allow you to sink more so you wont start skipping sideways..


That's because you lost some speed?

TheJoe wrote:
If I'm riding powered when I go to unhook I go straight to the kite unhook edge edge edge pop. It feels more like I'm at the cable.


Do you say that you edge longer,right?


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:54 pm 
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alex85 wrote:
Sorry the Joe but I can't completly understand what you writed:

TheJoe wrote:
It's all about wind speed. The more overpowered you are the longer you can hold that edge.


What edge are you meaning?


Sorry cable talk there. Your edge to load.

alex85 wrote:
TheJoe wrote:
In stronger winds the kite sits deeper.


Is not the opposite?


In higher winds your kite sits deeper from the drag it creates. This is why we trim kites to fix their angle of attack.

alex85 wrote:
TheJoe wrote:
More of downwind cut will allow you to have a more controlled speed as you edge into your load. It will all so allow you to sink more so you wont start skipping sideways..


That's because you lost some speed?


Exactly why. Speed is good going into your trick but only if it's a controllable speed.

alex85 wrote:
TheJoe wrote:
If I'm riding powered when I go to unhook I go straight to the kite unhook edge edge edge pop. It feels more like I'm at the cable.


Do you say that you edge longer,right?


Yes but since we are talking C-kites lets make it clear this only works on a C for me. If I try the same long edge on a hybrid or bridle kite it does not work. They fly too far forward so I have to use the quick instant load like normal.


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 Post subject: Re: c kite sits further back in the window...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Didn't find time to read through this thread. However, in response to the subject...

How 'deep in the window' a kite flies is purely a function of its L/D (lift to drag) ratio, which itself is the result of various design factors.

Most LEI (leading edge inflatable) kites have L/D ratios between 6:1 and 8:1 when trimmed efficiently. Older C-kite designs have lower ratios (less efficient) and contemporary Bow/SLE/race designs higher (more efficient). More extreme examples: old round parachutes have L/D ratios of about 0:1 and some glider wings have L/D ratios between 50:1 and 100:1.

A 6:1 L/D ratio kite flies 9.5 degrees back from perpendicular to the apparent wind, and an 8:1 L/D ratio kite flies 7.1 degrees back. The difference in 'depth into the window' is within about 2.5 degrees for most current LEI kites.

Cheers,
James


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