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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:22 pm 
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dyyylan wrote:
No they're not, mini 5th in almost all cases flags to one center line and depowers 100%. If it doesn't then you need to untwist your center lines (or get a better swivel).


Most flag to both front lines. This includes Cabrinha, Airush, Epic, Best (2009-2012), and I think North. I think this system is what people refer to as a mini-5th most of the time.

I think Liquid Force, Slingshot, Best 2013, and Naish flag to a single front line, correct? Is that still called a mini-fifth?

Flagging to a single front line will depower the kite much more effectively, but harder to relaunch after an accidental release it seems. More chances of things getting tangled.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:34 pm 
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epic airush and best are all single line flag out

regardless, it still flips the kite on its back with no power, it's not a terribly complicated thing


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:41 pm 
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Having a broken front line doesn't stop a mini-fifth from working. It makes it work better! If you break a front line then you are essentially releasing to a single front line right? Unless the mini fifth isn't long enough to pull only on one fornt line?


Makes sense but not what happens because you have the sequence of events wrong.. When I broke the front line I obviously had not already unhooked/released. The kite twisted and looped immediately. Your logic would be true if I broke the line after using the QR.

davesails7 wrote:
No they're not, mini 5th in almost all cases flags to one center line and depowers 100%. If it doesn't then you need to untwist your center lines (or get a better swivel).


This is not true. Most mini 5ths had gone thru the CL, the bar and finally to a ring forming a Y where both front lines attach. None claim 100% depower. Bests 2013 bar now comes with a mini 5th that flags to one front line. In any case if your leashed to the mini 5th and it breaks your kite is gone.

But even if it will depower 100% after you flag out on the mini 5th it wont help before you activate a QR or unhook. Once the kite loops, twists, etc and the lines are around each other you will have a better chance of total depower by flagging on an outside line.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:13 pm 
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In case anyone mistakes what I have said, by mini-5th I mean the type that flags the kite on one front line, running from the end of the front line at a swivel or fitting above the bar, down through the bar and CL assembly allowing a spinnable safety.
That other thing, that effectively just pulls in a lot of both front lines, is just stupid, whether it is called mini-5th also or anything else.
When it comes to flagging the kite, ideally you should be able to flag it on any line attached to it.
So a 5 line kite should be killable by releasing it to ANY of the five lines attached.
Sadly, kites aren't usually set up that way.
I came close when i added 5th line to a 2009 slingshot fuel.
I had primary safety via the 5th line, with a pigtail on the end of one front line at the fitting atop the depower rope as an alternate (non-spinnable) leash attachment point, and the 2 OSH handles.
Out of 5 lines, 4 would allow throwing the bar and killing the kite.
If I didn't want 5th for a session, for example in light wind with waves, I just attached the leash to the pigtail on the front line or swapped the pigtail for the CSS (mini 5th) safety line.
With the CSS/mini 5th I had a spinnable leash and still 2 OSH backup options.
If I just leashed onto the pigtail without the line through the bar, I had a good but non-spinnable front line safety. :thumb:
Good to have options!

If you have experience and luck, you may never have had your primary safety fail. Yet.
But eventually it will happen. A friend had a problem recently where something went wrong with his safety and he had no idea what to do, and no secondary safety. Happily he was able to release his leash, but he got wrapped in lines swimming to his kite.
Luckily he got picked up.
But how would you like to get picked up by a boat, while wrapped in your lines, with the kite not completely flagged out?
Could have been a disaster!
His lines were so knotted up, still not sure what happened, and no idea or plan B (except releasing the kite) for his safety not working.
Have options, at least have a plan B, C, D, so you can TRY to use them before you get wrapped, deathlooped, dragged out to sea, or into an obstacle.
If nothing else it might save you a line set or a kite repair...


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:32 pm 
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I'm not a huge fan of having multiple releases on a kite.

Here's the process you should go through

1) quick release
2) ditch the kite

the problem with more alternatives is that it takes brain power. Our brain is like a weak CPU. It takes time to process stuff. The fastest response you have is a trained reaction, that's roughly 250 milliseconds. So if you are trained, you hit the QR in 250 milliseconds and then wait for a second or two to see if it worked, and if that doesn't happen you ditch the kite in 250 milliseconds later.

But if you have a long checklist, this means you are not using trained responses, instead you are examining the situation and then choosing from a variety of options. Is my main safety twisted? Should I use the QR or the Oh Shit?

Each reaction will take minimum of half a second, and most reactions will take 2 seconds. So if you have a 4 stage check list you are talking about 8 seconds to work your way through all your different options.

Too many kiters get in trouble because they are reluctant to release the kite. You hit the QR and the kite doesn't flag, it's looping, so you walk up the leash while you are teabagging to find the oh shit and before you know it, you are eating sand.

You have to be ready to release the kite. The Oh Shit handle discourages you from releasing the kite right away, I don't like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:58 pm 
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+1 for OSH
had to land a 5th line Rebel where the 5th line was the 1 that broke, got the kite and myself back to the beach but then really really could have used another release line


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:18 pm 
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edt, you make a point, this OSH is not going to help when you are riding just upwind from piles of rocks.
But a lot of times, things happen when you are out farther, or the wind changes direction. Then it's good to have options, besides sending the kite across the ocean or into a crowd of riders, beachgoers, boats, etc.
Having options is important, so is choosing the right one.
If a kiter can't a couple of handle options for killing the kite without putting others at risk, can he handle being out there at all?
It's an ok choice to not use the OSH, but there's nothing wrong with having one.
Can come in handy in all sorts of situations.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:44 pm 
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BWD wrote:
If a kiter can't a couple of handle options for killing the kite without putting others at risk, can he handle being out there at all?


It's a matter of human reaction time, not being stupid.

Let me put it this way. If the wind is blowing anywhere from 10 up to 30mph it really doesn't matter if you have an oh shit handle or not, you have plenty of time to sort things out. But when it is blowing 30mph+ that's when it really matters how fast you react and it doesn't matter if you are as smart as Lex Luthor, adding more options to your decision tree reduces reaction time.

It's like people driving their 4x4's that add an "off" switch to turn off their antilock braking system. You would think having more options always makes you safer because there are some situations where turning the ABS off lets you stop quicker. The problem is every time they get into a situation where they are about to crash they have to devote a significant amount of their brain power to deciding whether or not to turn the ABS on or off. It is not a matter of intelligence. Adding options reduces reaction time.

If we are not in a critical situation, say you are stuck in the sand, then having the ABS on off switch is great.

Likewise if it is not blowing really hard and you get a knot in 3 of your lines but somehow the left line still is free, that's really convenient to flag out on the oh shit handle.

I'm not saying anyone is stupid, but if you do have an oh shit handle you have to consciously train yourself not to use it.

1) quick release
2) release kite

That's what your trained response should be. Insert a procedure for using the oh shit release in there and you have cluttered your checklist of what to do when the shit hits the fan. Now you add steps 3, maybe step 4.

I have a 2005 bar, from back in the day. That bar required an oh shit release, because it was about the most unreliable thing you can ever use. So I understand the history behind them. I just think control bars have improved so much since then that it makes sense to trust the primary QR more than we used to.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:47 am 
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edt wrote:
BWD wrote:
If a kiter can't a couple of handle options for killing the kite without putting others at risk, can he handle being out there at all?


It's a matter of human reaction time, not being stupid.

Let me put it this way. If the wind is blowing anywhere from 10 up to 30mph it really doesn't matter if you have an oh shit handle or not, you have plenty of time to sort things out. But when it is blowing 30mph+ that's when it really matters how fast you react and it doesn't matter if you are as smart as Lex Luthor, adding more options to your decision tree reduces reaction time.

It's like people driving their 4x4's that add an "off" switch to turn off their antilock braking system. You would think having more options always makes you safer because there are some situations where turning the ABS off lets you stop quicker. The problem is every time they get into a situation where they are about to crash they have to devote a significant amount of their brain power to deciding whether or not to turn the ABS on or off. It is not a matter of intelligence. Adding options reduces reaction time.

If we are not in a critical situation, say you are stuck in the sand, then having the ABS on off switch is great.

Likewise if it is not blowing really hard and you get a knot in 3 of your lines but somehow the left line still is free, that's really convenient to flag out on the oh shit handle.

I'm not saying anyone is stupid, but if you do have an oh shit handle you have to consciously train yourself not to use it.

1) quick release
2) release kite

That's what your trained response should be. Insert a procedure for using the oh shit release in there and you have cluttered your checklist of what to do when the shit hits the fan. Now you add steps 3, maybe step 4.

I have a 2005 bar, from back in the day. That bar required an oh shit release, because it was about the most unreliable thing you can ever use. So I understand the history behind them. I just think control bars have improved so much since then that it makes sense to trust the primary QR more than we used to.


Is 1 2 3 really that much more clutter than 1 2? :lol:
Hate to be in a situation where I reached for my OS only to realize that I took it off to unclutter my brain. If you're out in 30+ might as well go straight to number 2 for all the good the mini fifth does :lol: considering what I've read about them and the few I've seen in action.


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 Post subject: Re: Oh shit release
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:00 am 
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frankm1960 wrote:
If you're out in 30+ might as well go straight to number 2 for all the good the mini fifth does :lol: considering what I've read about them and the few I've seen in action.


Been in a few situations where I did number 2.

But seriously, if you need an oh shit ring because you don't trust the control bar you need a better control bar. I've been there and it's no fun.


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