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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:40 pm 
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Location: Montreal, Canada / NJ, USA
Dimitri M wrote:
alexeyga,
Its very hard to please every body. But once again you will see that maybe only 2% of the kiters would like to have the Depower bellow the bar, which is nothing to make a change. So in few words most of the kiters don't like the depower strap bellow the bar. Too much line hanging around plus can get very dangerous. The best depower is above the bar so every thing is clean bellow in case you need to release the CL. Also with our new 4G XTEND BARS you will be able to customize it and make the lines shorter by making a new knot and moving everything down. So every body is happy. Or you can always get the JUNIOR PRO XTEND BAR.
:thumb:


Dimitri, with all due respect, you're completely ignoring my point. I do hate below-the-bar trimmer just as much as you do, mainly because it takes both hands to operate the trimmer under any sensible load, but they do have some "pros" one of which is cleanliness!

And the main reason why most prefer the above-the-bar systems, is that it is extremely easy to use the trimmer, WITH ONLY ONE HAND!!! By placing the trimmer out of reach on your proto-4G-bars - thus requiring 2 hands to use the trimmer - you're deliberately ruining the sole and only reason for the above-the-bar setup to exist.

Hence my suggestion that at this point you might just as well adopt the below-the-bar setup as it's just as cumbersome to operate the trimmer, but a lot cleaner. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are other ways around, like on the new Blade's Unibar:

Image

Very clean and very functional. Lets count the number of individual parts between the chicken loop and the Y-split:

1)Chicken loop
2)A long piece of rope
3)Clamp cleat
4)Clamp cleat handle
5)Spinner
6)Flagging line

Now, Dimitri, would you like to do the same exercise with either 3G or 4G bars? Just for fun?

Image

1)Chicken loop
2)Plastic ball below the stopper
3)Stopper
4)Depower rope
5)Condom-cover
6)Non-working (after a few sessions) trimmer consisting of (at least) 19 individual pieces
7)Y-split leader
8- Y-split tripple s/s ring
9)Y-split pigtails
10)Non-functional flagging line (well, it sort of works, but it is not a safety system I feel comfortable hanging my life onto in 35+ winds, have to leash to the rear O-Shit handle when I'm riding in these conditions without a possibility to loop the kite...)

Like you've said your-self Dimitri:

Dimitri M wrote:
Too much line hanging around plus can get very dangerous.


Couldn't agree more!!! But what the hell do I know, i'm just a pu$$y who's better of with a Junior bar anyways... Thanks for the suggestion! :baby: Great way to take real rider's input as well! :thumb:

==========================================================================

Now, back to the damn trimmer:
I have managed to salvage an almost new buckle from an old Naish trimmer, here's what they look like side by side:

Image

Guess which one isn't holding anymore!

Image

Had to destroy the whole thing along the way... luckily I have an industrial-grade sewing machine at work.

Image

That little fix should allow me to ride while I'm working on a more sound solution or will get a replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:51 pm 
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I had an old Naish and I think Airush, they eventually slipped too, replacing them is necessary eventually, but I think those plastic pieces are better than metal, when functional.
I had home made Clam Cleat systems early on, then some Flexifoil's that were Cobra Cleat (Clam Cleat), they worked fine.
The Naish, Airush, Blade/Epic pull-pull strap systems I had, all worked pretty comfortably, never had reach issues with any.
All the above bar systems have the same throw versus reach ratios to deal with, that's why below bar systems were developed.
Had below the bar Cleats (Ocean Rodeo, Liquid Force, Slingshot) too, not great in 35+.
Have had some above bar newer Cleat systems (Switch, North) ..one much better than the other.
The throw on the Blade bar pic here looks very short (even without a stopper ball taking up room) and probably needs to be moved further away, which starts to bring the reach versus throw thing into question again.
At this point, I am willing to use any of them and don't care that much which one, as long as the lines are not junk and it has below the bar swivel.


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Mon May 13, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:15 pm 
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Location: Montreal, Canada / NJ, USA
I've started on Ozones with a clam-cleat, then I rode E.... for 3 seasons with a pull/pull straps that never-ever gave me any issues, then I had Ozones for another couple of season with Clam cleats, tested SS/LF and other kites meanwhile, got Epic gear and it's the second failed pull/pull trimmer in my hands in 2-months time... Go figure with "thousands of riders out there with no issues what so ever"!

Anyways, got my trimmer re-sewn, ain't as pretty as Chinese girls at 2$/day can do, but will hold until a better solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:17 am
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Location: Save a life...adopt a Pitbull
I would like to buy an industrial strength sewing machine, at some point.
It sure makes things easier for tweaking all your rigging, whether it is line leaders, line ends, strap systems, little things on the kite, or your harness.
Taking things off that you don't want or putting things on that you want to add.
Glad you got it sorted!! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:13 pm
Posts: 692
Location: www.blastkitesurfing.com
Over in Hatteras right now from the UK on a group trip, yesterday was banging winds here.
Got to try all the latest stuff from Epic (inc the new SURF kite)....extremely exciting times ahead for sure!
Dimitri has given us a wad of demo gear so if your in the Waves area and want to try some Epic gear shout out!

Still love the 7m Screamer when it's kicking winds.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Location: the netherlands / Epic Affiliated
alexeyga wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
alexeyga
And the main reason why most prefer the above-the-bar systems, is that it is extremely easy to use the trimmer, WITH ONLY ONE HAND!!! By placing the trimmer out of reach on your proto-4G-bars - thus requiring 2 hands to use the trimmer - you're deliberately ruining the sole and only reason for the above-the-bar setup to exist.


Personally i hate clamcleats. Had so many bad experiences with them. They never work as they should.
I cant finetune the trimming aswell. Several times i just pulled the entire kite out of the air because it wouldnt let go. It happened the cleat wouldnt grab the rope so my kite fully powered when i didnt want it.
And from what i've seen the rope wears faster.

Also the new Bar will be more simple. will see if i can show you some stuff.

I get you like simple (less is more) but for me a clamcleat would be a good reason not to ride with such a bar.
Straps just give me a better feel when i depower or powerup.


Last edited by Geronimo79 on Tue May 14, 2013 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:17 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
Geronimo79 wrote:
alexeyga wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
alexeyga
And the main reason why most prefer the above-the-bar systems, is that it is extremely easy to use the trimmer, WITH ONLY ONE HAND!!! By placing the trimmer out of reach on your proto-4G-bars - thus requiring 2 hands to use the trimmer - you're deliberately ruining the sole and only reason for the above-the-bar setup to exist.


Personally i hate clamcleats. Had so many bad experiences with them. They never work as they should.
I cant finetune the trimming aswell. Several times i just pulled the entire kite out of the air because it wouldnt let go. It happened the cleat wouldnt grab the rope so my kite fully powered when i didnt want it.
And from what i've seen the rope wears faster.

I get you like simple (less is more) but for me a clamcleat would be a good reason not to ride with such a bar.
Straps just give me a better feel when i depower or powerup.


Yep, I'm with you re: cleats... one more reason not to use them especially above the bar... what happens to all the extra rope flailing about when depowered... it wraps around the line to the chickenloop... guess what happens if you have to release then... I've seen deathloops because of it.

Alexeyga, if you don't like the pull pull design you should consider the Zeeko control bar. That one is nice and clean as well but no extra loose rope when depowered.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Once again alexeyga I do appreciate all your inputs but it is impossible to make every body happy. But all I can say is that our new 4G XTEND EPIC BAR will make you very happy. We had a lot of people checking on our new CL this past week and all of them were very impressed of the look and the way it works.
Now concerning the "Depower Strap" that you broke, please email me and will send you a new one as a WARRANTY part.


Attachments:
Sherrif checking the CL.jpg
Sherrif checking the CL.jpg [ 211.79 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
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IMG_1886.jpg [ 301.63 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
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IMG_1865 3.jpg [ 285.72 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
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IMG_1831 1.jpg [ 225.21 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
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IMG_1832 2.jpg [ 222.29 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
IMG_1815.jpg
IMG_1815.jpg [ 154.56 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
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IMG_1825.jpg [ 134.42 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
IMG_1872 1.jpg
IMG_1872 1.jpg [ 259.99 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
IMG_1800 2.jpg
IMG_1800 2.jpg [ 152.76 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
IMG_1807 1.jpg
IMG_1807 1.jpg [ 186.66 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
IMG_1955.jpg
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IMG_1952.jpg
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IMG_1945.jpg
IMG_1945.jpg [ 133.52 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
10 year old Cameron on the new 4G CL.jpg
10 year old Cameron on the new 4G CL.jpg [ 191.05 KIB | Viewed 385 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:56 pm
Posts: 435
Location: ontario
ive never had an issue with the depower strap either. Sorry about your luck. I did have a North dar with the iron heart and was not a fan of the cleat. I could never get them to release when on the water... so I just rode around depowered! The Eclipse below the bar was the same. It was ok, but not great.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Kites 3rd Generation. 3G II
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 3:44 pm
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Location: DownUnder/Brazil cumbuco-oceanview.com
Why inventing the wheel again? Have a look at the Cabrinha control system.
For me the best on the market. Very effective in regards to line wear, a VERY long de-power system which can be reached *by everybody* (due to their springs), no mocking around...
The only draw back for me is that I can't install a micro-loop/hook.

Cheers
Caesar 8)


Attachment:
Cabrinha-Quicklink-IDS-Bar-2012.jpg
Cabrinha-Quicklink-IDS-Bar-2012.jpg [ 26.92 KIB | Viewed 365 times ]


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