Emergency - Flagging out kites

[rynhardt]

It's not a matter of being smarter than anyone else, it's about whether the safest system designed for the lowest common denominator is appropriate to the convenience and control that you personally prefer.

I also prefer "flagging" to both front lines. I like the fact that my kite doesn't end up in a tangled mess.
I am very comfortable with 90% depower that keeps a manageable amount of tension on the lines at all times.
For me there's no real benefit to 100% depower.

[ronnie]

I like the flagging to 2 front line system - but only with a kite designed to fully work with it. By that I mean when you pop the Q/R the bar goes out to its planned distance of about 2.5 to 3m and the kite ALWAYS drops on it's back without you having to swim or walk towards it.
Its an easier system for pack down or recovery of the kite after flagging. You only have to wind a max of 3m of line on the bar (which you can double over, meaning you wind 1.5m), then you can wind all 4 lines. It's also useful for drift launching, self launching or self landing.

Cabrinha had that working with the early IDS kites, but it does restrict design of LE shape, bridle shape and you have to use pulleys. It seems that some of the IDS kites have gone away from that and can need some help to fall on their backs. I have an old Nobile kite that flags to two front lines but will not always drop on it's back by itself. I've read people complaining that an RRD kite did not drop on it's back automatically. I asked OR to do a video of their kite dropping on it's back without walking toward it. They said they would. I'm still waiting.

So it can be done if dual front line safety is the major design criteria and is not compromised to try to improve the kite performance in other areas. It then becomes a purchasing decision of whether you want the benefits of a fully functional dual front line safety system and are prepared to accept the performance characteristics that come with it - (that seemed to be the remit of the original IDS Crossbow).

The industry has gone away from that, but I think there should be a kite available that will drop on it's back every time on a dual front line system.

[alamos_kiter]

It's not a matter of being smarter than anyone else, it's about whether the safest system designed for the lowest common denominator is appropriate to the convenience and control that you personally prefer.

I also prefer "flagging" to both front lines. I like the fact that my kite doesn't end up in a tangled mess.
I am very comfortable with 90% depower that keeps a manageable amount of tension on the lines at all times.
For me there's no real benefit to 100% depower.

As you say, horses for courses. Important factor is knowing how your stuff works and training its use.

The reality is, 99% of the kiters have never thrown their kite to safety in overpowered conditions. Say 30+ kn on a 9-10m. This is where the truth is, not in a sunny afternoon 8kn breeze.

My kites flag to 1 front line reliably in any kind of wind or storm. I would not relaunch as I have to expect tangles half of the time, but self rescue and reset on the beach. But that's only me.

[ronnie]

It's not a matter of being smarter than anyone else, it's about whether the safest system designed for the lowest common denominator is appropriate to the convenience and control that you personally prefer.

I also prefer "flagging" to both front lines. I like the fact that my kite doesn't end up in a tangled mess.
I am very comfortable with 90% depower that keeps a manageable amount of tension on the lines at all times.
For me there's no real benefit to 100% depower.

As you say, horses for courses. Important factor is knowing how your stuff works and training its use.

The reality is, 99% of the kiters have never thrown their kite to safety in overpowered conditions. Say 30+ kn on a 9-10m. This is where the truth is, not in a sunny afternoon 8kn breeze.

My kites flag to 1 front line reliably in any kind of wind or storm. I would not relaunch as I have to expect tangles half of the time, but self rescue and reset on the beach. But that's only me.

That is a good point.

Ultimately, single front line flagging should produce less pull from the kite. ( I say should, because I flagged an overpowered old 14m Contra to one line and it had so much solid shape from the L/E and struts that it was presenting more area to the wind than it would have on a 5th line or very good dual line system).

There are occasions when the flagged pull really matters. Using a 5th line will probably have more pull than a single front line, and dual front lines (depending on how well they are designed to work) will produce something between very slightly more than a 5th line to almost full projected area of the kite pull. So then the likelihood of having to let the kite go completely increases - plus the difference in pull during the flag-out period could be critical.

[alamos_kiter]

You won't know until you try

[roninXpl]

Last weekend my wife was riding my Core, she has some troubles relaunching the kite in deeper water and she decided to flag out; the kite was on the water in the power zone leading edge forward and strangely enough it didn't flag out but kept pulling my wife. I wasn't there but the two facts remain 1. She used emergency, 2. She was still pulled. Maybe some line twist or something. Still waiting for an opportunity to check it.

[Kamikuza]

The reality is, 99% of the kiters have never thrown their kite to safety in overpowered conditions. Say 30+ kn on a 9-10m. This is where the truth is, not in a sunny afternoon 8kn breeze.

My kites flag to 1 front line reliably in any kind of wind or storm. I would not relaunch as I have to expect tangles half of the time, but self rescue and reset on the beach. But that's only me.

Heh... Had to throw the QR on my IDS Cabrinna recently, for the first time. 16m in 30+ squall... Kite went down just fine, but when I started hauling in the safety line, the inverted kite started hovering up to a few meters above the water with some pull on the line, but it was easy enough to hand over hand to the bar. I didn't relaunch due to the wind, but the water was shallow enough that I just walked back to the beach.

[ronnie]

The reality is, 99% of the kiters have never thrown their kite to safety in overpowered conditions. Say 30+ kn on a 9-10m. This is where the truth is, not in a sunny afternoon 8kn breeze.

My kites flag to 1 front line reliably in any kind of wind or storm. I would not relaunch as I have to expect tangles half of the time, but self rescue and reset on the beach. But that's only me.

Heh... Had to throw the QR on my IDS Cabrinna recently, for the first time. 16m in 30+ squall... Kite went down just fine, but when I started hauling in the safety line, the inverted kite started hovering up to a few meters above the water with some pull on the line, but it was easy enough to hand over hand to the bar. I didn't relaunch due to the wind, but the water was shallow enough that I just walked back to the beach.

That hovering seems to be caused by the area trying to equalise out above and below the connecting points. I've seen similar on a kite on the 5th line.

Once you get to the bar, letting the flag out line out slightly to produce a very slight tension on the rear lines should keep the kite pinned to the water, with probably a slight reduction in the pull.

[JBZ]

The reality is, 99% of the kiters have never thrown their kite to safety in overpowered conditions. Say 30+ kn on a 9-10m. This is where the truth is, not in a sunny afternoon 8kn breeze.

My kites flag to 1 front line reliably in any kind of wind or storm. I would not relaunch as I have to expect tangles half of the time, but self rescue and reset on the beach. But that's only me.

Heh... Had to throw the QR on my IDS Cabrinna recently, for the first time. 16m in 30+ squall... Kite went down just fine, but when I started hauling in the safety line, the inverted kite started hovering up to a few meters above the water with some pull on the line, but it was easy enough to hand over hand to the bar. I didn't relaunch due to the wind, but the water was shallow enough that I just walked back to the beach.

That hovering seems to be caused by the area trying to equalise out above and below the connecting points. I've seen similar on a kite on the 5th line.

Once you get to the bar, letting the flag out line out slightly to produce a very slight tension on the rear lines should keep the kite pinned to the water, with probably a slight reduction in the pull.

I have had that happen on all SLE's when I have a non recoverable crash while walking/swimming up to the kite or especially if rather then going to the kite I use a line and bring the kite to me. I don't ever remember this happening with C kites of early days though.

[edt]

this is an old post fyi to update it, as of 2015 there is only one manufacturer that still uses the mini 5th line that's ocean rodeo everyone else has switched to single center line flagging.