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Emergency - Flagging out kites

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Bille
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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby Bille » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:33 pm

alamos_kiter wrote:
rynhardt wrote:It's not a matter of being smarter than anyone else, it's about whether the safest system designed for the lowest common denominator is appropriate to the convenience and control that you personally prefer.

I also prefer "flagging" to both front lines. I like the fact that my kite doesn't end up in a tangled mess.
I am very comfortable with 90% depower that keeps a manageable amount of tension on the lines at all times.
For me there's no real benefit to 100% depower.

As you say, horses for courses. Important factor is knowing how your stuff works and training its use.

The reality is, 99% of the kiters have never thrown their kite to safety in overpowered conditions. Say 30+ kn on a 9-10m. This is where the truth is, not in a sunny afternoon 8kn breeze.

My kites flag to 1 front line reliably in any kind of wind or storm. I would not relaunch as I have to expect tangles half of the time, but self rescue and reset on the beach. But that's only me.
NO excuse ; for being ignorant, as to how your safety works .

My Edge , also flags to one line ; and Lots of things that could be made better with
the stock system. One of the problems with that stock system is that after 2 kite-loops ,
i can expect to be ejecting the leash, along with the chicken-loop ; because it almost
probably , will not flag with two line wraps . Ejecting the leash ; that also places
everyone that is down-wind of me , (at risk). A partial solution for me, is to never get
more than One line wrap , without setting up my next move to unwrap it.

On crowded days at 6-mile ; i generally drop the kite far enough away from
the swim-zone, to self-rescue with my lines wrapped on the bar. I do this mainly
because i don't trust my balance on the fake-legs, in shifty light wind, ; so i
have hit my QR a Lot, since 2009.

Bile

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Kamikuza
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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:31 am

ronnie wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:
alamos_kiter wrote:The reality is, 99% of the kiters have never thrown their kite to safety in overpowered conditions. Say 30+ kn on a 9-10m. This is where the truth is, not in a sunny afternoon 8kn breeze.

My kites flag to 1 front line reliably in any kind of wind or storm. I would not relaunch as I have to expect tangles half of the time, but self rescue and reset on the beach. But that's only me.
Heh... Had to throw the QR on my IDS Cabrinna recently, for the first time. 16m in 30+ squall... Kite went down just fine, but when I started hauling in the safety line, the inverted kite started hovering up to a few meters above the water with some pull on the line, but it was easy enough to hand over hand to the bar. I didn't relaunch due to the wind, but the water was shallow enough that I just walked back to the beach.
That hovering seems to be caused by the area trying to equalise out above and below the connecting points. I've seen similar on a kite on the 5th line.

Once you get to the bar, letting the flag out line out slightly to produce a very slight tension on the rear lines should keep the kite pinned to the water, with probably a slight reduction in the pull.
That sounds logical - my OR kite does just that, and it's got a shorter dual front safety that the Cab.

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby matthepp » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:57 am

Sorry I didn't mean to be offensive to you personally bushflyer.
I've had mini 5ths NOT roll over when punched. Maybe a bigger problem on snow. I nearly got pulled over a ridge looking at a 2k foot fall due to a non rollover. I nearly dumped the brand new kite completely. Its single line flag only for me from now on.
Death worse than mess.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Matt

quote="Bushflyr"]
matthepp wrote: With all due respect, I call bullshit.
OK. So back it up with evidence.

I've used single flag systems. If you punch the release you wind up, yes, depowering your kite, but you wind up with an irrecoverable mess. Time to swim in.

Now I use a dual flag system. I punch the release and it works perfectly. The kite depowers and everything stops. BUT, all I have to do is grab the centerline and reload the chicken loop and I'm back kiting. No small consideration when I'm over a mile offshore in double overhead surf.

So, matthepp, I, with "all due respect," submit that you have no idea WTF you're talking about.[/quote]

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby ronnie » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:33 am

matthepp wrote:Sorry I didn't mean to be offensive to you personally bushflyer.
I've had mini 5ths NOT roll over when punched. Maybe a bigger problem on snow. I nearly got pulled over a ridge looking at a 2k foot fall due to a non rollover. I nearly dumped the brand new kite completely. Its single line flag only for me from now on.
Death worse than mess.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Matt
With a dual front line safety system, it has to always fall on it's back automatically, or its not designed properly as a safety system. It can be done and kites exist that do do that. Unfortunately there are kites that don't do it always and automatically, and I don't see the point of compromising safety for performance - better to go to single front line if the dual front line safety doesn't work fully.

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby alamos_kiter » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:08 am

matthepp wrote:...Now I use a dual flag system. I punch the release and it works perfectly. The kite depowers and everything stops. BUT, all I have to do is grab the centerline and reload the chicken loop and I'm back kiting. No small consideration when I'm over a mile offshore in double overhead surf....
What kite+bar are you using? If this works perfectly in strong winds (release overpowered and kite drops dead with near no pull) that would be great, I'd like to have a look at it.

The mile offshore DOH scenario is more of a theoretical issue I suppose. If you QR a mile offshore at the reef in DOH waves, there is a reason for it. You will NEVER throw your kite in such conditions if you can avoid it at any rate, because you have trouble coming your way. So, throwing to QR a mile out in monster break, resetting and off you go sounds a bit unrealistic. The only scenario I could think of is an unintentional, accidental release. And still you've got to be very lucky to reload and relaunch before the DOH breakers have smashed your kite to smithereens.

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby edt » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:43 pm

the war between mini 5th and single center flagging is over and mini-5th has lost the battle. Not for safety reasons, not for ease of use, but because of design constraints. The mini-5th requires the bridle to work a certain way and it constrained the design of kites. By 2014, nearly every kite manufacturers decided they wanted to move past the design constraints imposed by a mini-5th, allowing them shorter bridles less pulleys and different kite shapes. You can continue battling arguing about the mini-5th and single center flagging but the war is over and been won by single center. If you decide to use mini-5th you will need to test any new kite you buy with your bar to make sure it works, some of the new kites will "2 line fly" that is you can release the kite on to the mini-5th and due to new bridle designs it will continue to fly and pull. So if you like mini-5th, you are going to either have to constraint your kite purchases to only a subset of kites, you won't be able to just go out and buy any kite you like, or you will have to accept pulling the quick release on your kite will not fully depower it. For most kiters the decision is not between mini-5th and single center line. Now the decision is, which is the best single center line quick release on the market right now. Which is the most cost effective, stuff like that. If you want to argue about how great the mini-5th is, well it's a little bit like the multi-pumpers. You can argue all you want but the war is over and won. Make your own stuff, buy old gear, do what you like, but modern kiters have moved past it and are worrying about other stuff.

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby tomatkins » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:28 pm

edt,

Thanks for that analysis.

There is however (or was, maybe, If Caution kites has gone out of business)... a “cross-over” design in kites... the example would be the Caution kite, which has a 2 line (mini-fifth style) front lines system, which is activated by a push-away release, and which greatly DEPOWERS the kite, as the chicken loop is broken and releases, thereby allowing the bar to travel an additional foot or so, but certainly not 13 feet, like the old IDS system. It does not appear to claim to be a “kill-switch” design like the old IDS system, but only a CONVENIENCE extreme depower design, allowing re-access to the bar, with minimal tangling of the lines. The bar has 2 “oh,sh!t” handles, which I assume are meant to be the “kill-switch” to be used in an emergency, where the kite would be accessed for a self-rescue.

Does Caution still make this bar in 2015? I hope they are still in business... those guys are awesome watermen!

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby Bushflyr » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:39 am

Tom nailed it. If you look at my setup it's an old Caution bar, but they still use the same system. I have their new bar, but I just like the old one better. Better for split finger riding with the smooth center line.

My kites are Caution and OR Razor. Ejecting to 90% depower and 100% recoverability, IMO is much better than ejecting to 95% depower and 10% recoverability. If you're still getting dragged after popping the chicken loop all you have to do is release the leash and you're completely free of the kite. Simple, safe, and more options than a tangled mess every time you pop the loop.

ETA: And yes Caution still makes the same bar. And the Spitfire is an awesome kite.

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby jmach » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:06 pm

I must be a kite geek, I find this discussion very interesting.

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Re: Emergency - Flagging out kites

Postby GregK » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:59 pm

There's one very important consideration that deserves mention in this kite flagging war of dual-front line versus single front line :

When a front line breaks, a dual-front will still flag the kite if the chicken loop is released, but with a single front line if your flagging front line breaks, without an O-S handle or two on the steering lines, releasing the kite is your only option.

So if you have a single front line, make sure you keep that front flagging line in A-1 condition !


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