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 Post subject: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:58 am 
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There are a LOT of bullshit claims by kite companies regarding light wind capabilities. NO kite will perform in < 7-8 knots. The owners and distributors of the Epic Infinity are among the worst offenders. To claim the Epic Infinity can perform in "2-4 knots" (even if it is with a SUP) is ridiculous and a blatant lie and leaves the company wide open to claims from disgruntled users.

WIND GRADIENT & FETCH
The use of anecdotal evidence to try to support a generalisation is always suspicious. Epic's owners continually posting videos & images of kites flying in conditions without whitecaps and claiming "5 knots" are misleading; obviously wind gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient and/or short wind "fetch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography) are involved.

RELATIVE KITE PERFORMANCE
The ONLY way to gauge the RELATIVE performance of kites in light winds is to fly them side-by-side, with similarly experienced riders and similar boards.

LIGHT WIND KITE DESIGN
It is simply not possible for the Epic Infinity (V1, 2, or 3) to surpass significantly the performance of every other light wind kite in existence. There is NOT enough energy for ANY kite to perform in "2-4 knots of wind". With BIG light wind kites, various modifications have been tested over many years: Fast-turning big kites need to be fat (i.e. lower aspect ration & long middle struts), but the payoff is poorer upwind ability and slightly inferior low-end. Narrower (high aspect ratio) kites go upwind better, but turn more slowly. e.g. Flysurfer's "Speeds" are very narrow, but very SLOW turning. There is no such thing as a fast-turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range; there's always a trade-off.

EPIC INFINITY'S DEEP LUFF CURVE CAUSES PROBLEMS
Laughingman wrote:
1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to lose speed control since edging against it was near impossible … but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.
The problem with designing a ~16m kite (Infinity V2 and V3) for "light winds" is that the luff curve has to be very deep to "milk" as much low end as possible. This causes the kite to sit VERY deep in the window, leading to the problems "Laughingman" outlined, i.e. poor upwind ability, a tendency to yank the rider downwind, extremely poor top-end, and poor ability to absorb gusts.

For obvious reasons, a ~16m kite will NEVER have the low end of a larger kite. The Epic Infinity probably shouldn't even be called a "light wind kite"; 16m kites are more "light-medium" wind kites. To make up for the lack of surface area, the Infinity's designers have deepened the luff curve, with obvious NEGATIVE tradeoffs.

Epic Infinity V1 & V2 INFERIOR
The Epic V2 Infinity was tested alongside other light wind kites (e.g. North Dyno 18m) and was found to be inferior.
davesails7 wrote:
I've been riding a 2011 18m Dyno for the last few months and have been really impressed. I've ridden it while others rode…Epic Infinity…, so can compare low end by how I was able to get on the water vs. the others. Who knows what actual wind speeds were up in the air at the kite. I think side by side comparison is much more helpful than endless videos of a kite riding alone on glassy water.
vs. Infinity: Dyno was stable in the air, never fell out of the sky for 4 hours of light wind riding. Two guys with Infinities were struggling to keep their kites in the air most of the time.
Objective testing of previous versions of the "Infinity" showed it had inferior power to other kites in light winds: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2011/05/e ... te-review/
Dimitri M wrote:
I have video of the Infinity V2 in action from 5 to 10 knots real soon. Did I say 5 knots!!!! No way..... !
The Infinity V3 failed in 8 knots (see below). The V2 performing in 5k? Complete bullshit.

Epic Infinity V3 INFERIOR
The INFERIORITY of the Epic Infinity V3 was demonstrated conclusively in a head-to-head comparison with the 19m Core. It failed THE major criterion of light wind kite performance: the ability to get the rider going early in LIGHT winds.
SupaEZ wrote:
I would have written (Dimitri M) a check right there and then if his kite was better than mine...but it was not. I did get going earlier in the light wind that we had 7-9k max avg 8k. But he needed 7-11kn avg 9k.......which never happened.
SupaEZ wrote:
His kite needed more wind to get going.

I was 100 ft away from beach on a full plane in 8k. He was 10 ft away from the beach on a sub-plane working hard not to end up on beach also in 8k. Right before we crossed (dead onshore wind) … Made sure he saw me...i looked into the white of his eyes. Did a 6 ft air forward 1 1/2 transition with kite downloop to toeside and planed off on the other tack

For the short time we were both able to go out i did 5 type jumps/ transitions. Many with looping the kite effortlessly.

He was only able to get one 4ft air back roll transition and landed in an insufficient amount of water. He was then grounded.
End of story.

…the issue here is who is BS "ing" who here about LW performance.

I felt like i was riding against someone with a smaller size kite.....OOOPS i was !

Epic's Bad Sportsmanship & Fundamental Dishonesty
Recently, EPIC's ~16m V3 Infinity challenged a 19m kite to a "duel". Epic lost. During the duel, despite having plenty of opportunity to use line extensions and a surfboard, Epic refused to do so, "because (he) didn't need them". But to subsequently use this as an excuse for losing is …. pathetic and fundamentally dishonest. This fundamental dishonesty was compounded by outright slander, claiming the opponent had to swim out to get started.

Epic Infinity V3 Will LOSE Even More Low End
The Epic Infinity V3 is still being revised:
DimitriM wrote:
…we are still working on perfecting the High end of the INFINITY v3.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to give a kite more high end without compromising low end. Hence, the Epic Infinity V3 will become even more INFERIOR in light winds.

Epic Lies & Exaggerations
Epic's owners are well known to stretch the truth, e.g.:
Dimitri M wrote:
Infinity V2 has the power of a 19 meter but turns like a 14 meter. :thumb:
Compared to the Core19m kite, the Epic Infinity V3 was noticeably INFERIOR; it certainly didn't have the "power of a 19m".

Until this vid surfaced, Epic was claiming light wind domination at this event. The inferiority of the Epic Infinity in light winds is demonstrated, as is the fundamental dishonesty of Epic in trying to portray otherwise. Epic struggling and then collapsing into the water while the Cabrinha LW kite blasts past. Compelling. Hilarious! And a savage indictment of Epic and its marketing. The Epic Infinity can NOT fly in ?7/8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.

SUP-kiting in 9 Knots
Despite the "2-4" knot claims, the Epic Infinity CANNOT perform on a SUP until ~ 9 knots.
Dimitri M wrote:
Quote:
Poster: PVITfrumBYRAM
....Personally I like your kites, I just don't like the approach as much. That's great you are getting people stoked at how well the kite can fly in such light conditions, but the reality is it was more than 2-4 knots. Maybe it was that light during a lull on the water and that's why you dropped the kite in the water, but there was a steady breeze.
As for the gentleman with the 21 meter foil, he was inexperienced and could barely fly that kite in 8-10 mph on a different day.
Hello Paoloe or should I call you Mr.PVITfrumBYRAM? I wish I knew who I am talking to. You said on your post above that you like my kites but don't like the approach as much!!! What do you mean by that?
I remember that day Chris Moor who is the manager of theKitty Hawk Kites store and probably your boss …. Are you Paulo the one who works and teaches at KHK on RRD!!!
:thumb:
UKSurf wrote:
Translation: If you question my over the top claims again I will tell your boss who sells my kites

In addition, at a recent visit to Cocoa Beach, Epic's owner claimed the ability to SUP-kite in:
Dimitri M wrote:
3 to 6 knots
In response, the following was posted by a knowledgeable local:
SupaEZ wrote:
... the Patrick Air Force Base windmeter reading (is) just a few miles upwind of Dimitri: Wind was SSW 200 degrees...that is why the ocean is so glassy...i should know i live here 30 years. He was out between 2 and 4 pm.... we see clearly that the wind was always more than........... 10 mph :happybirthday: .......those are government's wind meters....very accurate... :surf: :sun:

Despite the claimed performance in "2-4" or "3-6k", quite clearly, the Epic Infinity cannot perform on a SUP until >10mph (9k). This has been confirmed by reliable objective observers and wind speed measurements. It is interesting to note the hostile and personalised nature of the attacks by Epic

EPIC SLAMS BLADE
Not only does Epic stretch the truth about the Infinity, it also unfairly slams its competitors:
UKSurf wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
The difference from the INFINITY V2 vs the FAT LADY is that the INFINITY v2 turns faster and has better pop. But the power is piratically the same after testing them.
Now the INFINITY V3 is something different.
:thumb:

Why did Momi design an inferior kite for Blade? :roll: I honestly think this claiming your kites are superior to everyone else's will only backfire. If it is better at one thing then it will be worse at something else, most people appreciate that kite design these days is about finely balanced trade-offs NOT one kite being better than another.

Light Wind Showdown
While the Epic Infinity V3 was shown to be INFERIOR to the Core 19m, a formal light-wind "showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Blade, Ozone, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

FAKE FORUM NAMES, ABUSE, & BONHOMIE
Epic's supporters admit to creating fake personas on this forum, replete with the same retarded spelling, grammar, and syntax. The fake personas push Epic products & abuse anyone who DARES to question their claims. These fake personas, e.g. Kiteus Maximus (below), personally attack and vilify, unless, of course, you agree to stop criticising Epic kites:
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
Whatever dude. You created me. If you don't like me then stop creating me.
Kite2Heaven wrote:
PMU - you really are stupid if you are resorting to walking backwards with a kite !!! … Otherwise "ALL" wind readings are BULLSHIT just like yourself !!
Of course, walking backwards with a kite is not a recognised way of testing its low-end, UNLESS you are making claims that it can fly in "2-4 knots". It would be EASY to test Epic's "2-4 knot" claim by putting up the Infinity in a school hall or similar & walking backwards at the standard walking velocity of 2.7 knots. The lies promoted by EPIC are even more appalling when they are couched in the fake bonhomie, oh so *HILARIOUS* pics of goats, and apparently friendly banter, not to mention the overt aggression and threatening behaviour of the "Kite2Heaven" persona.

STOP THE BULLSHIT: RETURN THEIR KITES
There IS a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. A "class action" against these companies, perhaps using this forum as a meeting point, will force these companies to be more truthful.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda.
No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.


Pumpy ……………………… :pump:


Last edited by Pump me up on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:30 pm, edited 40 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:22 am 
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Wow, Pumpy, you are a bitter, bitter man. :lol:

I've tested the V3 and it can stay in the air in 3-4 knots, but unless you are on a giant
SUP board, you aren't going anywhere. On the right board, you can stay upwind in 7-8, but don't expect to jump or rip upwind. Fun starts around 10 knots. It will water relaunch without much effort in 7-8, though, and there aren't many kites that will do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:52 am 
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Well said!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:00 am 
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Pump me up wrote:

A light-wind showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda. No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.

Pumpy


You may get your wish...soon...showdown very possible..mid-december..central East Florida

Epic V2 and V3 showdown against my Cores Riot XR2LW 19 and 17M

We will not use SUP's....only his LW TT's or our surfboards...more than likely also in the ocean

The wind will need to be 7-8kn .....for a real side by side test of kites on water..in real time

Each kites tested will be piloted by skilled LW riders (us two) ...both at the same time on water

Tested for board speed in same wind on a beam reach...

Tested for board speed in same wind going upwind...

If the wind gets to 9kn...we will start jumping...and see who goes higher and stays up longer..etc etc

Epic wants to do this showdown....i did say it was not necessary...there is nothing to prove to me

My 19 is simply bigger & more powerful...and the 17 is about the same size as his kite

But Epic wants real bad to come over and teach me a lesson it seems..i still say he should not

My 19 starts to "perform" in 7-8kn where i ride on surfboards...no way in 6-7 or 5-6 or 4-5 or 3-4kn

It does however fly overhead at the beach unaided in 5-6kn...so the 19 can handle lulls very well

..................................... :surf: :sun: ................SupaEZ....................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:31 am 
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Flight Time wrote:
Wow, Pumpy, you are a bitter, bitter man. :lol:

I've tested the V3 and it can stay in the air in 3-4 knots, but unless you are on a giant
SUP board, you aren't going anywhere. On the right board, you can stay upwind in 7-8, but don't expect to jump or rip upwind. Fun starts around 10 knots. It will water relaunch without much effort in 7-8, though, and there aren't many kites that will do that.


Dimitri claims it will stay in the air in 2 knots which is a lot less lift than the 1-2 knots lower than what you indicate.

dimitri m wrote:
But all I know is that in 2 to 4 knots the V3 stays in the air better then the V2.

http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2378266&start=30

I'd say a lot of kites will stay in the air in 4 knots...to be ridden? ...meh...

I don;t care too much about what claim a company comes up with..they will just disappoint when users find it is wrong..

Not that I agree with PMU either....
right now..I as not a great kiter can easily ride a raceboard in 8 knots powered...I think great kiters can tweak a lot more lowend out of theirs. There is still a lot to do in kite design, an it is slowly coming, but not quite here yet. We'll definitely see a lot in terms of efficiency in the future, but 2 knots right now? pfffftt....


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:08 am 
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Just my own observations. My guess says that neither of us are half as good as Dimitri, so my results are probably more accurate for the average rider. In any case, the measure of the kite is not what it can do in garbage wind. Dimitri was simply demonstrating the kite's abilities taken to the most rediculous extreme as a marker or measure of what it can do in marginal conditions. It's perfectly rideable in 7-8 knots, but nowhere did he state that you would be boosting to the moon and throwing kiteloops while everyone watched with sad faces from the beach. You can kite in winds that would relegate most kites on the market to the beach.

I could describe it more, or you could just demo it yourself and make up your own mind. That goes for everyone who would rather flap their gums about something they haven't tried. If I wrote a scathing review about a flat screen TV I had never laid eyes on, would everyone trust my judgement? No, they would label me a f-king idiot, and this is how it should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:47 am 
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Oh Yea, don't forget to Post Video with your claims! If you don't, video as it has been said on this forum, is the ONLY believable truth.

I went to work 2 day. Really, lets see the Video!! :desperado: :desperado: :desperado: :desperado: :desperado: :desperado: :happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday: :happybirthday:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:17 am 
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Haha pumpy

All I know is I've had fun on the Epic Infinity V1 and a Nobile skim board in 4-6knts

I've also had a good laugh with a 17m Edge and a Naish Alaia in 4-6 knots

I've also had a blast using a Speed3 19m and a Flydoor on flat water in 4-8knts

…would I trade these sessions for a 20-25knt on a 10m kite?…of course I would but if I've just driven an hour to get to the beach I'm going to want to play, whether it's 6knts or 26knts.

I don't know what you are going to clear up with a side by side comparison, as you said it yourself that no kite will perform in <7-8…….wait, did somebody forgot to tell the Ozone race team this?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Pump me up wrote:
There is no such thing as a fast turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range. There's always a trade-off.


All wind speeds mentioned are in warm air.

I have the Dyno 2011 in 18 and fly it a lot.
I can stay upwind in about 8 knots average.
I can do double rotation boardoff in average 10 knots.
I can hold it to gusts of 25 knots, average like 23 knots.
I go upwind like all the 9m kites.
I jump higher than most on 9m kites.
I fly longer than all (besides Flysurfers).
I use the inner connection of the bar to have it even slower (fast is not always wanted!)
If the 5th line is not wrapped around the kite, so far I always relaunched the 18 quickly (pull 5th line and steer to side).

Big kites can be very good. I wouldn't know how to improve a kite like this. It made 662 tricks possible...

PS: 93 kg and 128x39 board !!!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Evolution Kites wrote:
All I know is I've had fun on the Epic Infinity V1 and a Nobile skim board in 4-6knts


How do you measure your windspeeds?

I'm lucky to have a wind sensor about 2 miles offshore of the beach that I kite at the most. The sensor is on an island which is part of a bridge/tunnel, and it is about 100 feet off the water. So it gives a really good reading of what the clean wind is, off the beach, and up off of the water.

As long as you give comparison to other kites (as you did), it's not too big of a deal though.

Have to keep in mind that whole energy is proportional to V^2. So 8 knots of wind has 16 times as much energy (4^2) as 2 knots of wind!


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