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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:15 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
Hello Peter aka (Laughingman),
I just found out that the INFINITY V2 demo kite that I am expecting this week from a customer won't be here to send you because he decided to buy it. My wife just informed me about this few minutes ago, and I was unaware of this transaction since I was expecting that demo to come back this week.
So I am going to send you my own INFINITY V2 complete with bar, it has been used 3 times. And will ship it to you today so you can have it for your Cuba trip on the 26th of January. Once you get back from your trip please send it back to me as soon as possible because I have other people wanting to demo it.
I got all your shipping info and will be sending you the FED EX tracking number later on this afternoon. Have a great trip and be safe.

P.S. Mr.Pump me up you are next.


You're funny Dimitri,
I think we have already dealt with all the particulars within our email thread. No need to repeat them here...

Dimitri has asked that I let all you guys know what is going on so here it is... it is not really on topic of the OP but this is where Dimitri last corresponded about this on the forum so my guess is this is where he would like me to post.
Yes its true, I am going to demo the Infinity V2 and why not, so far my opinion of the Infinity has been based on the purple/pink prototype of the version 1.
I'll recap what I said before (back in 2010/2011) about the purple/pink prototype of the infinity 1
pros
1. it was very stable in very light wind... it would just hang there while other big kites would be falling out of the sky
2. It was very easy to relaunch in very light wind, no running or anything ... just depower it and pull a line and the thing would roll over
3. the bar set up was easy to use and straight forward

cons.
1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to loose speed control since edging against it was near impossible

These two cons actually worked in heavier riders favor. I'm only 175lbs. 200lbs plus riders loved this kite.

3. the plastic clip release system did not make me feel comfortable considering how many times I've seen them break, I understand there is a new release system in testing so I assume this will be solved shortly.

When I get back I will report on these 6 points and any other things that come up.

Also, I must say Dimitri has been very professional and has shown excellent customer service throughout this process. I feel it is very generous of him to send me his own personal kite although I'm pretty sure if you own the company all of the kites are yours...lol. Anyhow, all told, so far this experience has been better then any other experience I've had when considering a purchase of just about anything... ever...
Now lets hope the kite performs as I hope it does.

Sincerely
Pete

P.S. Just received the kite a week earlier than needed, to bad we have no snow.... Dimitri even threw in a gift for my wife... somehow I suspect this was Helen's idea.


Okay as I promised, I am back and ready to share my experience with the Infinity V2
Cuba was once again incredible, but this time it was windy every day except for one so I only had one afternoon when the wind was low enough to bother to pump it up. It was blowing 8 - 10 knots that afternoon and later on picked up a few knots which is when I switched to my 12.5m Ion 3.

I really wanted to like this kite... I was thinking I could pick it up for a deal if I liked it...

So the pros and cons are basically the same as before and are still accurate.The kite is stable in light winds, relaunches well, and has a clean and straightforward bar set up, but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.
In the wind that I tested it in, I was planing very well, I even had 1/2 of the depower pulled in but still struggled to get upwind. I tried everything I know, and I would say I do have some light wind skills, obviously I'm no pro but living in SWO you have no choice but to learn quickly how to milk every bit from low winds.
Also, the quick release did malfunction, of course this happens when I am about 2km from shore (Dimitri, I bet your ears were ringing that day), I was about to make my turn and bam it lets go, tried to reassemble it in deep water but was unable to get the red slide to move up (seemed like it was jammed) so I could put that U clip back in place. I ended up bringing the kite to the shore side and dragged into the sand bar where I could get a better grip on the release.
Dimitri, I swear I will not try another one of your kites until you get that release system fixed. I have been kiting for 5 years and never have one of my kite's release system malfunctioned, additionally when I have released on purpose reassembling was no problem.
This system is not reliable and had I been upwind of people when it malfunctioned someone could have been hurt.
Anyhow, bottom line is, once it picked up to about 11-13 knots I switched to my 12.5m kite and was having a better time of it. So for a difference of a few knots it was not worth it to me. Maybe if it was way more fun then it was, maybe if I didn't have to work so hard to get myself upwind I would have purchased the kite only (you can keep your bar if it has that release).

Now I want to be clear, I had well enough power. I was planing easily, but each reach was exhausting just to maintain. By the time I clawed myself back up wind I was ready for a break.

After all is said and done, Dimitri, Helen and the rest of his team have been very attentive, professional, generous and all the good things you could wish for when considering a purchase. The deposit I put down on the kite was happily refunded ( there were some duty charges ) but minimal.... $30 or so... and my wife looks hot in her new tank top.
Dimitri knows how to treat customers and I think this is why so many of them defend him and his brand so fiercely. I get it now. The rest of the industry should pay attention, Dimitri is making you look bad, and while this kite was not for me, I have tested his Screamers and really enjoyed that model, I even liked the 14m!
So there you go Dimitri, my honest thoughts and experience as requested, sorry I could not make it more positive...

Sincerely
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
SupaEZ wrote:
Do you get it now about your filthy mouth ? :censored:
Supa-
Words are only words, they are only letters put together to convey thoughts, for me there are no magic words that are off limits.
Content is what matters, I find it far more foul when someone (for personal amusement) tries to tear something down that a person has worked to BUILD.


Until he BUILDS a larger size kite that sits higher in the window and don't pull people off the wind...
..i will attempt to expose the truth and DEBUNK the MYTH.....
.... about the superior performance (over larger LW specific kites) of the small V3 & V2 :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:44 pm 
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@laughingman... thanks for your thoughts on the V2 and just wondering what size TT were you on.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:13 pm 
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frankm1960 wrote:
@laughingman... thanks for your thoughts on the V2 and just wondering what size TT were you on.


I was riding my 150 x 40 Mako Wide all afternoon.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Thank you again for your post Mr.Laughingman. But like I said before in the email I sent you. The INFINITY V2 is a very powerful kite and if you are looking to kite in (11 to 14 knots) the INFINITY v2 is not for you. Especially Using a Twin Tip that is 40cm wide. Which means that you had more then 12 knots to play with. From my understanding it was windy every day in Cuba and you only had the chance to try the kite once, is that correct?
The INFINITY was designed for very light winds 7 to 12 knots max. But also it depends on your weight. If you are 240+++ lbs then you can hold the INFINITY v2 all the way to 18 knots.
Personally I am 182 lbs and I am very lucky to leave in a place where 90% of the time it is windy. So if I was a customer I would not invest on an INFINITY kite but would invest on the RENEGADE 13 or SCREAMER 14 models so I can kite comfortably in 11 to 17 knots. But if you are a customer that leaves in a place that rarely gets past 14 knots and when you get out of work you just want to kite in sea breeze of 7 to 11 knots then "yes" you should invest in the INFINITY v2. The only time I will use the DROID 141x41cm Twin Tip board with the INFINITY V2 is when it is blowing (11 to 17 knots) just to be able to old the kite down so I don't get blown down wind. But again in these conditions I can use the SCREAMER 14 or RENEGADE 13 and have a better time kiting.
Now if you want a kite that goes upwind like a maniac then the RACER 17 will be another choice. And you can hold this kite way better in stronger wind because it is a very high aspect ratio kite.
Concerning the Chicken Loop. Again we can't make every body happy. Some people do like the Blade CL that we are using on our bars and few others don't. No need to buy the BAR that comes with the INFINITY or any other EPIC KITES, you can always use your own bar. We try to make things very easy for every body, so no need to invest on a new bar once you demo an EPIC kite. You can always use your own bar.
We should have our own EPIC CHICKEN LOOP ready very soon. We have been doing the final testing here in Cabarete for the past 5 days making sure the CL is working the way Momi and I wanted to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Momi's belly is getting very large :)


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Dimitri M wrote:
Thank you again for your post Mr.Laughingman. But like I said bmm efore in the email I sent you. The INFINITY V2 is a very powerful kite and if you are looking to kite in (11 to 14 knots) the INFINITY v2 is not for you. Especially Using a Twin Tip that is 40cm wide. Which means that you had more then 12 knots to play with. From my understanding it was windy every day in Cuba and you only had the chance to try the kite once, is that correct?
The INFINITY was designed for very light winds 7 to 12 knots max. But also it depends on your weight. If you are 240+++ lbs then you can hold the INFINITY v2 all the way to 18 knots.

Yes it was windy all week (8m - 12m all week) and I only had the opportunity to try the infinity v2 one afternoon for a few hours in 8 - 10 knots and when it picked up to 11-13 knots I switched to my 12.5m kite. The Mako wide has a 19mm concave (which increases the surface area) so it is capable of being used in lighter winds then other 40cm wide boards, if the velocity of wind that day is in question I can upload a video which shows pretty clearly how light the wind was. So as I see it I was using the kite in the wind it was designed to be used and this is the range I would like to be able to kite in back home. In SWO we have to drive hours to kite so if the wind is light we don't want to waste the gas and time. Big kites and big boards are required.


Quote:
Now if you want a kite that goes upwind like a maniac then the RACER 17 will be another choice. And you can hold this kite way better in stronger wind because it is a very high aspect ratio kite.


That sounds more like the kite I am looking for. It boggles my mind why anyone would design a light wind kite that does not go up wind well. Maybe in April I can test that one?

Quote:
We should have our own EPIC CHICKEN LOOP ready very soon. We have been doing the final testing here in Cabarete for the past 5 days making sure the CL is working the way Momi and I wanted to work.


Awesome. I know you have been working on this, and I am pretty sure you knew how I feel about the old one so I was surprised you did not send a bar with the new release on it for me to test. I probably would not have been cursing so much 2km off shore....

Thanks again Dimitri for allowing me to test the infinity v2


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:24 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:
1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to loose speed control since edging against it was near impossible
I really wanted to like this kite... I was thinking I could pick it up for a deal if I liked it... .....
but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.


The problem with designing a ~16m kite (Infinity V2 and likely V3) for "light winds" is that the luff curve has to be very deep to "milk" as much low end as possible. This causes the kite to sit VERY deep in the window, leading to the problems "Laughingman" outlined, i.e. poor upwind ability and a tendency to yank the rider downwind.

Also, for obvious reasons, a ~16m kite will NEVER have the low end of a larger kite. It probably shouldn't even be called a "light wind kite"; 16m kites are more "light-medium" wind kites. To make up for the lack of surface area, designers are forced to deepen the luff curve, with obvious (NEGATIVE) tradeoffs.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:19 pm 
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Pump me up wrote:
Laughingman wrote:
1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to loose speed control since edging against it was near impossible
I really wanted to like this kite... I was thinking I could pick it up for a deal if I liked it... .....
but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.


The problem with designing a ~16m kite (Infinity V2 and likely V3) for "light winds" is that the luff curve has to be very deep to "milk" as much low end as possible. This causes the kite to sit VERY deep in the window, leading to the problems "Laughingman" outlined, i.e. poor upwind ability and a tendency to yank the rider downwind.

Also, for obvious reasons, a ~16m kite will NEVER have the low end of a larger kite. It probably shouldn't even be called a "light wind kite"; 16m kites are more "light-medium" wind kites. To make up for the lack of surface area, designers are forced to deepen the luff curve, with obvious (NEGATIVE) tradeoffs.


I APPROVE your comment PMU and saw first hand the V3's deep luff curve n Cocoa Beach

I flew the kite and know how it sits overhead in 4-5kn on 22m lines..the design drops it ...
...in the power zone in the ideal position

But if you were to double that wind speed (4 times more power) to 8-10kn...
......the kite ends up deeper than ideal in the window but still easily manageable

If you triple (9 times more power) to 12-15kn....the kite will definitely have too much PULL for most

People need to differentiate between POWER and PULL when speaking about kites

A deep curve luff kite gives the ILLUSION of power because of the excessive pull .....
...as the rider moves faster over the water and / or wind picks up...the kite locks in the power.....
....and you can't spill it out

On a kite like that it is actually DETRIMENTAL to add longer lines....
....because it will end up even deeper in the power zone (i knew and he knew that in our testing)

So saying the kite is too powerful in 12kn is kinda funny...it's not POWER....it's bad angle of PULL

If that is the way it was intended in the design that's fine with me

But when i choose a kite for LW i make sure a choose the largest tube with the widest wind range

Who in the world does not want that... a kite stay up in lulls of 4-5kn no problem

Who in the world would love a no BS wind range 8kn (7-8-9kn) to 18kn (16-18-19-20) !!!!

No need to get off the water....i have managed crazy conditions with 22kn gusts....
..... and was able to spill wind and go upwind on a strapped surfboard this winter

I am only 75kg/165lbs and the 19m2 is always ridden with 27m lines..the kite has power not pull

.............................. :surf: :sun: :pump: :party1: ....................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:46 pm 
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@ Laughingman. Nice review.
Personally i had less problem with going upwind but my board has good upwind abilitys 132x41 straight outline. But i agree its not as easy as on the Screamer.

Personally i think the Racer 17m will fit you way better. Its a simular shape as the screamer so better for going upwind. Not sure how it performs but maybe i can tell i May.
The Infinity isnt 100% my kite either but it gets me going very early and saves my summers.

The Infinity gives a nice extra playfullness which give me the ability to play in lightwind. Probably the cost of upwind. But sofar i tested a view other brands and some i liked some i hated. The infinity overal i enjoyed the most.


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