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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:46 am 
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Ha SupaEgo, I have an old 2009 North Freerace board and man those boards go in nothing, they ride flat compared to a tt, loads of volume, real wide in the tail and....use the large fins a heap!

You can not compare a raceboard to a tt?


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:09 am 
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windsuks wrote:
Ha SupaEgo, I have an old 2009 North Freerace board and man those boards go in nothing, they ride flat compared to a tt, loads of volume, real wide in the tail and....use the large fins a heap!

You can not compare a raceboard to a tt?


Yeah the 2009 ....the owner of 321Kiteboarding still has one....it does ride flat and has large fins

The 2011 does not ride flat and has 2 small 14cm fins and not much volume at all..and not EZ to ride

The board i used compares perfectly with Dimitri's specialized and very efficient TT

.................. :surf: :sun: .......................................................................................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:09 am 
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UPDATED SUMMARY OF ISSUES

There are a LOT of bullshit claims by kite companies regarding light wind capabilities. NO kite will perform in < 7-8 knots. The owners and distributors of the Epic Infinity are among the worst offenders. To claim the Epic Infinity can perform in "2-4 knots" (even if it is with a SUP) is ridiculous and a blatant lie and leaves the company wide open to claims from disgruntled users.

Wind Gradient & Fetch
The use of anecdotal evidence to try to support a generalisation is always suspicious. Epic's owners continually posting videos & images of kites flying in conditions without whitecaps and claiming "5 knots" are misleading; obviously wind gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient and/or short wind "fetch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography) are involved.

Relative Kite Performance
The ONLY way to gauge the RELATIVE performance of kites in light winds is to fly them side-by-side, with similarly experienced riders and similar boards.

Light Wind Kite Design
It is simply not possible for the Epic Infinity (V1, 2, or 3) to surpass significantly the performance of every other light wind kite in existence. There is NOT enough energy for ANY kite to perform in "2-4 knots of wind". With BIG light wind kites, various modifications have been tested over many years: Fast-turning big kites need to be fat (i.e. lower aspect ration & long middle struts), but the payoff is poorer upwind ability and slightly inferior low-end. Narrower (high aspect ratio) kites go upwind better, but turn more slowly. e.g. Flysurfer's "Speeds" are very narrow, but very SLOW turning. There is no such thing as a fast-turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range; there's always a trade-off.

Epic Infinity V1 & V2 INFERIOR
The Epic V2 Infinity was tested alongside other light wind kites (e.g. North Dyno 18m) and was found to be inferior.
davesails7 wrote:
I've been riding a 2011 18m Dyno for the last few months and have been really impressed. I've ridden it while others rode…Epic Infinity…, so can compare low end by how I was able to get on the water vs. the others. Who knows what actual wind speeds were up in the air at the kite. I think side by side comparison is much more helpful than endless videos of a kite riding alone on glassy water.
vs. Infinity: Dyno was stable in the air, never fell out of the sky for 4 hours of light wind riding. Two guys with Infinities were struggling to keep their kites in the air most of the time.
Objective testing of previous versions of the "Infinity" showed it had inferior power to other kites in light winds, despite Epic's propaganda: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2011/05/e ... te-review/
Dimitri M wrote:
I have video of the Infinity V2 in action from 5 to 10 knots real soon. Did I say 5 knots!!!! No way..... !
The Infinity V3 failed in 8 knots (see below). The V2 performing in 5k? Complete bullshit.

Epic Infinity V3 INFERIOR
The INFERIORITY of the Epic Infinity V3 was demonstrated conclusively in a head-to-head comparison with the 19m Core. It failed THE major criterion of light wind kite performance: the ability to get the rider going early in LIGHT winds.
SupaEZ wrote:
I would have written (DimitriM) a check right there and then if his kite was better than mine...but it was not. I did get going earlier in the light wind that we had 7-9k max avg 8k. But he needed 7-11kn avg 9k.......which never happened.
SupaEZ wrote:
His kite needed more wind to get going.

I was 100 ft away from beach on a full plane in 8k. He was 10 ft away from the beach on a sub-plane working hard not to end up on beach also in 8k. Right before we crossed (dead onshore wind) i am going South and he his going North… Made sure he saw me...i looked into the white of his eyes. Did a 6 ft air forward 1 1/2 transition with kite downloop to toeside and planed off on the other tack

For the short time we were both able to go out i did 5 type jumps/ transitions. Many with looping the kite effortlessly.

He was only able to get one 4ft air back roll transition and landed in an insufficient amount of water. He was then grounded.
End of story.

…the issue here is who is BS "ing" who here about LW performance.

I felt like i was riding against someone with a smaller size kite.....OOOPS i was !

Epic Infinity V3 Will LOSE Even More Low End
The Epic Infinity V3 is still being revised:
DimitriM wrote:
…we are still working on perfecting the High end of the INFINITY v3.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to give a kite more high end without compromising low end. Hence, the Epic Infinity V3 will become even more INFERIOR in light winds.

Epic Lies & Exaggerations
Epic's owners are well known to stretch the truth, e.g.:
Dimitri M wrote:
Infinity V2 has the power of a 19 meter but turns like a 14 meter. :thumb:
Compared to the Core19m kite, the Epic Infinity V3 was noticeably INFERIOR; it certainly didn't have the "power of a 19m".

At a recent visit to Cocoa Beach, Epic's owner claimed the ability to SUP-kite in:
Dimitri M wrote:
3 to 6 knots
In response, the following was posted by a knowledgeable local:
SupaEZ wrote:
... the Patrick Air Force Base windmeter reading (is) just a few miles upwind of Dimitri: Wind was SSW 200 degrees...that is why the ocean is so glassy...i should know i live here 30 years. He was out between 2 and 4 pm.... we see clearly that the wind was always more than........... 10 mph :happybirthday: .......those are government's wind meters....very accurate... :surf: :sun:

Despite the claimed performance in "3-6k", quite clearly, the Epic Infinity cannot perform on a SUP until >10mph (9k).

Epic Slams Blade
Not only does Epic stretch the truth about the Infinity, it also unfairly slams its competitors:
UKSurf wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
The difference from the INFINITY V2 vs the FAT LADY is that the INFINITY v2 turns faster and has better pop. But the power is piratically the same after testing them.
Now the INFINITY V3 is something different.
:thumb:

Why did Momi design an inferior kite for Blade? :roll: I honestly think this claiming your kites are superior to everyone else's will only backfire. If it is better at one thing then it will be worse at something else, most people appreciate that kite design these days is about finely balanced trade-offs NOT one kite being better than another.

Light Wind Showdown
While the Epic Infinity V3 IS INFERIOR to the Core 19m, a formal light-wind "showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Blade, Ozone, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

Fake Forum Names & Abuse
Epic's supporters admit to creating fake personas on this forum, replete with the same retarded spelling, grammar, and syntax. The fake personas push Epic products & abuse anyone who DARES to question their claims. These fake personas, e.g. Kiteus Maximus (below), personally attack and vilify, unless, of course, you agree to stop criticising Epic kites:
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
Whatever dude. You created me. If you don't like me then stop creating me.
Kite2Heaven wrote:
PMU - you really are stupid if you are resorting to walking backwards with a kite !!! … Otherwise "ALL" wind readings are BULLSHIT just like yourself !!
Of course, walking backwards with a kite is not a recognised way of testing its low-end, UNLESS you are making claims that it can fly in "2-4 knots". It would be EASY to test Epic's "2-4 knot" claim by putting up the Infinity in a school hall or similar & walking backwards at the standard walking velocity of 2.7 knots.

Stop the Bullshit: Return their kites
There IS a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. A "class action" against these companies, perhaps using this forum as a meeting point, will force these companies to be more truthful with their advertising.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda.
No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.


Pumpy ……………………… :pump:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:24 am 
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pfff mr rage..

Well a long nice story full of rage.

I say this. Watch the videos. And then you will see it will go in very very very lightwind. As simple as that.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:26 am 
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Oldnbroken wrote:
But it would have been great if the two of you could have at least gotten on the same board.
Was there not another Oxygen there to jump on?
Or maybe your twintip could have helped even up the line length and weight differences?


I would have sincerely preferred if he would gave brought 2 Oxygen V2 boards with him

My only twintip North Select 2010 135cm is 40.5cm...and has been collecting dust for 2 years

I go on directionals where i live and that board is what i like in 8kn (7-8-9kn) with the 19

I have 2 other type surfboards for windier/different conditions and smaller kites

I believe that if i wore a weight jacket of 14 lbs...
Took off my 3m extensions....
Rode the identical board...at the same time we were both out....
...since my kite has more area and projected area ...
....the results would not have changed much or at all

Simple physics.....IMO...there is absolutely nothing wrong with his kite....simply a smaller size kite !

....................... :surf: :sun: .....................................................................................................................


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:29 am 
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
Dimitri M wrote:
Hello Laughingman and Happy New Year. What happened this fall. You said you were coming down to the Outer Banks. I had a place for you and your wife to stay but never heard back from you!!!! I hope you are OK. Any way hope to see you this Spring in Hatteras. Email me once you know the dates. Can't wait for you to demo all the EPIC product.
:thumb:

Mr. D
You are a very generous man, and I appreciate the offer you made to us. We had some teenager issues and ended up cancelling travel until late November. Things are better now. We did however find our way to Cuba for the last week of Nov. Worst week of wind ever in my 5 trips down there. We kited but I'm pretty sure the infinity would have been a good kite to bring with us. We will be in Hatteras in the spring. Probably from the 6th of April till the 16thish. I hope we can try the new kites then, especially the v3 infinity.
We are however headed back to Cuba on jan 26th. Any chance we can demo this kite (infinity v3) over our holiday? Is the new chickenloop and release available yet? The safety system was really my only issue with your kites. The goon squad is another issue, but hey, I'm sure you don't have full control over them... Case in point crazychris! I gotta admit though, those were exciting times!
Sincerely
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:32 am 
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Either way, Supa, you did yourself, your cause, and everyone a huge disservice by not jumping on the same kite and same board and reviewing the combo. You rode and flew two varieties of apples and compared it to a combo of oranges. Nothing was proven, one way or the other, except that you like Core, and D likes the Infinity. But then, there really is no way to prove anything at all without a fair and unbiased test. It's pretty easy to do your best on the gear you represent and dog it on the gear you devote a significant amount of each and every day denouncing. There is no such thing as an unbiased rider, so let them be biased.

The only way to prove anything at all is to put together a panel of brand-pimp riders that have similar weights and equal alliances to their brand, and every one of them rides the same exact board, and flies what they pimp. SupaEgo can fly his pimp brand Core, D can ride his Infinity, the other team riders can ride what they promote. The riders are weighed before flying, and wear weight belts to even the field, and they all ride the same board. Every rider would have something to prove, and would be motivated to give it 110% to show what their favorite brand can do.

Who would sign up for this? I don't know, but I know who would be first in line, and that would be Dimitri. I'm pretty sure that whoever else has a brand to pimp would suddenly have other pressing things to do that day.

Aah, in a fantasy would, people would put their money where their mouths are.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:49 am 
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SupaEZ wrote:
The board i was on is narrow and short.
...same efficiency as the Oxygen V2 IMO..no better
Made by North 2011 model and the name of it is Freerace
A FreeRace board! ..you mean like a Sector?
You had 3M extensions that you could have taken off?
Why did you not do that?
Dimitri probably should have remembered to pack a FreeRace type board for his trip to your piece of Ocean.
Most folks that live on the Ocean have/use surfboards..did you bring your surfboard? or twintip from home?
Dimitri brought a few of each.
It would have taken you three minutes to go fetch either.
I think most of us agree that many surfboards require less power than lightwind twintips, mine does.
And I think most of us agree that Freerace directionals beat the surf boards...by a lot.
The Oxygen is a short lightwind board at 135cm, designed to satisfy Dimitri's idea that a lightwind twintip should also be a board that can be used to to do the freestyle tricks that he likes to do so much.
As far as your North Select, I can cut and paste posts you have made in the last few months about how you use that board in flat water, your posts describe the exact wind conditions and exactly how high you jump with it, so I'm confused about that now.
.
Anyway, Here is a description of the board you rode:
.
2011 North Free Race
The Free Race is a 5'3" twin-fin directional that bridges the gap between race and free ride. It will get you up and going in lighter wind than a surfboard without the typical constraints of a full-on race board. The super flat rocker, wide blocky tail and optimized swept-back twin-fins get you flying upwind in a light breeze, while a slightly rounder outline and surf-influenced rail shape keep things loose and free through the chop.

.
You just described your directional as narrow, and posted yesterday about how much nose rocker it has.
It's a FreeRace board, no matter how you spin it.
.
Here is a picture:


Attachments:
freerace-s.jpg
freerace-s.jpg [ 48.95 KIB | Viewed 246 times ]


Last edited by Oldnbroken on Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:29 am 
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Location: OUTER BANKS (NC) USA. Owner of EPICKITES
Hello Pete (Laughingman),
I totally understand what you mean about teenager :roll: My daughter is 14 years old and she is already giving us a hard time.
Any way email me and I can probably send you the INFINITY V2 to demo in Cuba for your trip. I cannot send you the V3 yet because it is my only prototype. But you will be able to test it in April when you come to Hatteras. You have my email so just email me so I can get the V2 as soon as it comes back from some one else demoing it.
Concerning the new EPIC bar. I should have it soon. I gave one of my prototype to Vitali Klitshko the heavy weight boxing champion to test it since he is a good person to test the durability of the Chicken Loop + he just bought more EPIC kites to add to his EPIC quiver that he already has.
Between us I think he likes EPIC kites. :D


Last edited by Dimitri M on Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:23 am 
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Flightime - I agree thats exactly what should have happed. So all that has been proved is that Epic kiteboarding have maintained themselves with Professional credibility from offers to send his kites to anyone for demos as well as tame them on tour demos and offer 'Anyone to front up whos called BS' to have a go and continues to keep converting people, positive or negative advertising "always" ends up as positive advertising if the manner of customer service is maintained, as has and still is being done :)
Well done Epic ... To come through with flying colours!
Now on a personal note for Dimitri... If as they say - I am associated to Epic kites - then can you please tell me why I pay full retail for anything i buy from Epic ? And also why people cant remember the awesome customer service youve always shown to me, that I have allready written about in this topic ?


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