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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:37 am 
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I own the previous model of that North board, it makes a huge difference in light winds. You simply can't compare that with a twin tip especially a board like the Oxygen made with tricks also in mind!


This is such a farce


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:01 am 
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The video conclusively shows the Core 19m kite OUTPERFORMING the Epic V3 Infinity.

Clearly, the Epic Infinity doesn't get you going on a twin tip until well over ??? 12 knots.

There are a LOT of bullshit claims by kite companies regarding light wind capabilities. NO kite will perform in < 7-8 knots. The owners and distributors of the Epic Infinity are among the worst offenders. To claim the Epic Infinity can perform in "2-4 knots" (even if it is with a SUP) is ridiculous and a blatant lie and leaves the company wide open to claims from disgruntled users.

WIND GRADIENT & FETCH
The use of anecdotal evidence to try to support a generalisation is always suspicious. Epic's owners continually posting videos & images of kites flying in conditions without whitecaps and claiming "5 knots" are misleading; obviously wind gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient and/or short wind "fetch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography) are involved.

RELATIVE KITE PERFORMANCE
The ONLY way to gauge the RELATIVE performance of kites in light winds is to fly them side-by-side, with similarly experienced riders and similar boards.

LIGHT WIND KITE DESIGN
It is simply not possible for the Epic Infinity (V1, 2, or 3) to surpass significantly the performance of every other light wind kite in existence. There is NOT enough energy for ANY kite to perform in "2-4 knots of wind". With BIG light wind kites, various modifications have been tested over many years: Fast-turning big kites need to be fat (i.e. lower aspect ration & long middle struts), but the payoff is poorer upwind ability and slightly inferior low-end. Narrower (high aspect ratio) kites go upwind better, but turn more slowly. e.g. Flysurfer's "Speeds" are very narrow, but very SLOW turning. There is no such thing as a fast-turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range; there's always a trade-off.

EPIC INFINITY'S DEEP LUFF CURVE CAUSES PROBLEMS
Laughingman wrote:
1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to lose speed control since edging against it was near impossible … but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.
The problem with designing a ~16m kite (Infinity V2 and V3) for "light winds" is that the luff curve has to be very deep to "milk" as much low end as possible. This causes the kite to sit VERY deep in the window, leading to the problems "Laughingman" outlined, i.e. poor upwind ability, a tendency to yank the rider downwind, extremely poor top-end, and poor ability to absorb gusts.

For obvious reasons, a ~16m kite will NEVER have the low end of a larger kite. The Epic Infinity probably shouldn't even be called a "light wind kite"; 16m kites are more "light-medium" wind kites. To make up for the lack of surface area, the Infinity's designers have deepened the luff curve, with obvious NEGATIVE tradeoffs.

Epic Infinity V1 & V2 INFERIOR
The Epic V2 Infinity was tested alongside other light wind kites (e.g. North Dyno 18m) and was found to be inferior.
davesails7 wrote:
I've been riding a 2011 18m Dyno for the last few months and have been really impressed. I've ridden it while others rode…Epic Infinity…, so can compare low end by how I was able to get on the water vs. the others. Who knows what actual wind speeds were up in the air at the kite. I think side by side comparison is much more helpful than endless videos of a kite riding alone on glassy water.
vs. Infinity: Dyno was stable in the air, never fell out of the sky for 4 hours of light wind riding. Two guys with Infinities were struggling to keep their kites in the air most of the time.
Objective testing of previous versions of the "Infinity" showed it had inferior power to other kites in light winds: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2011/05/e ... te-review/
Dimitri M wrote:
I have video of the Infinity V2 in action from 5 to 10 knots real soon. Did I say 5 knots!!!! No way..... !
The Infinity V3 failed in 8 knots (see below). The V2 performing in 5k? Complete bullshit.

Epic Infinity V3 INFERIOR
The INFERIORITY of the Epic Infinity V3 was demonstrated conclusively in a head-to-head comparison with the 19m Core. It failed THE major criterion of light wind kite performance: the ability to get the rider going early in LIGHT winds.
SupaEZ wrote:
I would have written (Dimitri M) a check right there and then if his kite was better than mine...but it was not. I did get going earlier in the light wind that we had 7-9k max avg 8k. But he needed 7-11kn avg 9k.......which never happened.
SupaEZ wrote:
His kite needed more wind to get going.

I was 100 ft away from beach on a full plane in 8k. He was 10 ft away from the beach on a sub-plane working hard not to end up on beach also in 8k. Right before we crossed (dead onshore wind) … Made sure he saw me...i looked into the white of his eyes. Did a 6 ft air forward 1 1/2 transition with kite downloop to toeside and planed off on the other tack

For the short time we were both able to go out i did 5 type jumps/ transitions. Many with looping the kite effortlessly.

He was only able to get one 4ft air back roll transition and landed in an insufficient amount of water. He was then grounded.
End of story.

…the issue here is who is BS "ing" who here about LW performance.

I felt like i was riding against someone with a smaller size kite.....OOOPS i was !

Epic Infinity V3 Will LOSE Even More Low End
The Epic Infinity V3 is still being revised:
DimitriM wrote:
…we are still working on perfecting the High end of the INFINITY v3.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to give a kite more high end without compromising low end. Hence, the Epic Infinity V3 will become even more INFERIOR in light winds.

Epic Lies & Exaggerations
Epic's owners are well known to stretch the truth, e.g.:
Dimitri M wrote:
Infinity V2 has the power of a 19 meter but turns like a 14 meter. :thumb:
Compared to the Core19m kite, the Epic Infinity V3 was noticeably INFERIOR; it certainly didn't have the "power of a 19m".

At a recent visit to Cocoa Beach, Epic's owner claimed the ability to SUP-kite in:
Dimitri M wrote:
3 to 6 knots
In response, the following was posted by a knowledgeable local:
SupaEZ wrote:
... the Patrick Air Force Base windmeter reading (is) just a few miles upwind of Dimitri: Wind was SSW 200 degrees...that is why the ocean is so glassy...i should know i live here 30 years. He was out between 2 and 4 pm.... we see clearly that the wind was always more than........... 10 mph :happybirthday: .......those are government's wind meters....very accurate... :surf: :sun:

Despite the claimed performance in "3-6k", quite clearly, the Epic Infinity cannot perform on a SUP until >10mph (9k).

EPIC SLAMS BLADE
Not only does Epic stretch the truth about the Infinity, it also unfairly slams its competitors:
UKSurf wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
The difference from the INFINITY V2 vs the FAT LADY is that the INFINITY v2 turns faster and has better pop. But the power is piratically the same after testing them.
Now the INFINITY V3 is something different.
:thumb:

Why did Momi design an inferior kite for Blade? :roll: I honestly think this claiming your kites are superior to everyone else's will only backfire. If it is better at one thing then it will be worse at something else, most people appreciate that kite design these days is about finely balanced trade-offs NOT one kite being better than another.

Light Wind Showdown
While the Epic Infinity V3 was shown to be INFERIOR to the Core 19m, a formal light-wind "showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Blade, Ozone, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

FAKE FORUM NAMES & ABUSE
Epic's supporters admit to creating fake personas on this forum, replete with the same retarded spelling, grammar, and syntax. The fake personas push Epic products & abuse anyone who DARES to question their claims. These fake personas, e.g. Kiteus Maximus (below), personally attack and vilify, unless, of course, you agree to stop criticising Epic kites:
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
Whatever dude. You created me. If you don't like me then stop creating me.
Kite2Heaven wrote:
PMU - you really are stupid if you are resorting to walking backwards with a kite !!! … Otherwise "ALL" wind readings are BULLSHIT just like yourself !!
Of course, walking backwards with a kite is not a recognised way of testing its low-end, UNLESS you are making claims that it can fly in "2-4 knots". It would be EASY to test Epic's "2-4 knot" claim by putting up the Infinity in a school hall or similar & walking backwards at the standard walking velocity of 2.7 knots.

STOP THE BULLSHIT: RETURN THEIR KITES
There IS a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. A "class action" against these companies, perhaps using this forum as a meeting point, will force these companies to be more truthful.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda.
No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.


Pumpy ……………………… :pump:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:11 am 
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windsuks wrote:
I own the previous model of that North board, it makes a huge difference in light winds. You simply can't compare that with a twin tip especially a board like the Oxygen made with tricks also in mind!


This is such a farce


It is not an entirely fair comparison I would agree. But what it does show is that the Infinity V3 and Oxygen do not go upwind in 7-8 knots, even with a professional rider using them. He is also using a light wind twin tip, not a regular board. It might well be that the Infinity performs very well as a light wind freestyle kite in the top end of a force 3 gusting into a force 4, but that is something very different than what is being claimed here.

What we can conclude for certain is that the Infinity V3 is not a revolutionary kite and that directionals with fins are the way to go in a force 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:21 am 
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Pumpy, comparing a 'free race' board against a light wind 'twin tip' is a flawed comparison.

Do you also not agree that a 17+m kite with a dedicated raceboard can perform in 7-8 knots?

That is bullshit right there. even my lard arse can get going on my raceboard in 7 knots.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:45 am 
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH and HAHAHAHAHAH and HAHAHA

Yes that pretty much sums it up well Tone.

fun to see how SupaCoreSlut is weasling his way out of this one. Lets see how he'll try to damage controll is sore little ego.

@ old'nbroken you young god. Perfect massive overload of pictures.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:55 am 
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Last edited by Oldnbroken on Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:04 pm 
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Last edited by Oldnbroken on Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:07 pm 
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UKSurf wrote:
I will try the Airush Zero at the first opportunity dont worry . Having a high aspect ratio 17m with the weight of a 10m sounds very exciting.

Dimitri M wrote:
Also you will see that the LE of the AIRUSH ZERO is twice as big as the LE of the INFINITY v2 kite. So it is not as light as you think.



You should not use scale on empty kite, kite companies give out empty or dry weight. What matters is how much kite has mass when it is full of air. If Dimitri says Airush has larger LE than Infinity it could contain more mass when pumped.

So if your kite material is 0.5kg lighter but you need to pump 500l (0.5m3, 1.2041kg/m3 = 0.6kg) more air actually your flying weight is bigger, in this example 100 grams.

Let's calc with cylinder, you have 6m long and 0.3m diameter cylinder1 compared to 6m long and 0.4m diameter cylinder2 (both have same pressure so pumping pressure does not matter).

Volume1: 1.697m3
Volume2: 3.017m3

You see that increasing diameter by 10cm (33%) almost doubled the total volume. Same happens to mass of air. So small increase of diameter of LE could have big influence in kite's mass.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:13 pm 
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What does "perform" mean, Pump-a-chump? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Kamikuza wrote:
What does "perform" mean, Pump-a-chump? :roll:

No need to be so formal, please feel free to call me "Mr Pumpy".

We've already discussed the definition of "perform" previously, and open to suggestions, but a reasonable definition would be a kite being at least able to hold its ground (stay upwind) for a significant period of time (eg 20 mins), using standard equipment ( twin tips, directionals, surfboards, race boards).


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