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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:59 pm 
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To a certain extent, Supa's anger is understandable. Epic DOES lie, exaggerate, and mislead re the Infinity, both in claims of absolute performance and performance relative to other kites (e.g. the Core 19m).

These lie are even more appalling when they are couched in the fake bonhomie, oh so *HILARIOUS* pics of goats, and apparently friendly banter, not to mention the overt aggression and threatening behaviour of the "Kite2Heaven" persona.

Questions of style aside, Supa is obviously knowledgeable about and has a passion for light wind. For Epic to "challenge" Supa to a light-wind "duel", then refuse to use line extensions and a surfboard mid duel "because (he) didn't need them", but then to use this as an excuse for losing to Supa is …. pathetic and fundamentally dishonest. Combined with outright slander, such as claiming Supa had to swim out to get started, is it any wonder Supa is furious?


Last edited by Pump me up on Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:06 pm 
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:roll: :roll: :roll:


Last edited by SupaEZ on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:17 pm 
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Wise suggestion PMU

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


Last edited by SupaEZ on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:19 pm 
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Even PMU has learned a bit about light wind and editing. A while back he was ranting about how kitesurfing upwind was impossible in under 8 knots. He did a bit of learning and some editing and has lowered his impossibility limit to 7 knots (and has edited in and out a number of stipulations over time). One of these days I think he might lower the impossibility limit to 6 knots!


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:36 pm 
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loco4viento wrote:
Even PMU has learned a bit about light wind and editing. A while back he was ranting about how kitesurfing upwind was impossible in under 8 knots. He did a bit of learning and some editing and has lowered his impossibility limit to 7 knots (and has edited in and out a number of stipulations over time). One of these days I think he might lower the impossibility limit to 6 knots!


At 7.0 kn i break even ..barely planing..kite needs a bit of sinin..and i do not go upwind
At 7.5 kn i start to go a bit upwind..plane a bit faster
At 8.0 kn i really go upwind and fast just like in the video with onshore non-vertical gradient wind

The V3 OBVIOUSLY AS SHOWN THAT IT CANNOT DO THAT....it is just to small and poor at upwind

:wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:


Last edited by SupaEZ on Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:39 pm 
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BigPaul wrote:
P.S. UK surf - do I know you?


Why would you know me? I dont hang out with the sock puppets of people involved with the Epic brand.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:41 pm 
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UKSurf wrote:
BigPaul wrote:
P.S. UK surf - do I know you?


Why would you know me? I dont hang out with the sock puppets of people involved with the Epic brand.


UKSurf ...I do not know you.................... but i sure like your style :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Location: the netherlands / Epic Affiliated
Sofar 1 thing is very clear to me and apearantly others. you NUTS

Supa you need to stop your lies and your personal vendetta, you look more and more pathetic every time you write something. You have been twisting words from the start to try to benefit your personal vendetta. So you didnt swim but walked the first 100m.

And stuff like.. "i told him not to come here on my beach" WTF... you arrogant B-hatch and so much more crap you have spilled in the same "arrogant" catagory.

After more then 90 pages with atleast 2 posts from you on every page you made your point clear. And guess what most of us dont care that much about your sorry ass.
Man you piss me off :angryfire: , have kept away as much as i could from this topic but damnnn you are persistant in spilling your crapy opinion. And so called "wisdomm" based on assumptions. And NOTHING more then assumptions.

The topic PumpmeUP started i can totally understand since the "claims" are hard to believe. But guess what i know the people who were there and i trust these people multiple of them. And i STILL dont care what te freakin wind is on 10ms high, i care what that freakin windmeter says they were holding BECAUSE THAT is the only way i as a simple rider will ever use as a way to measure the wind.
You call people liars, but you are the one twisting words and lying. I personally know Dimitri and i trust him, and he has videos to back alot of that up. In all those videos the wind is really REALLY light.

The original claim was slowly getting dragged on a SUP with a windrange from 2-4 knots (safe to say an average of 4 knots with sometimes a lul down.) Its still amazing lightwind but THAT WAS MEASURED!!!
Every bullshit argument you bring against that is ASSUMPTIONS made by you. Because you simply were NOT there. So stop your magic wind bullshit.
Ofcourse some estimate windranges are eyeballed, but still there where also measured ones.

Your "Victory" video is cut to a certain extend but lets say it was done honest. I still see you on a freakin huge board that needs to be ridden as flat at possible for maximum float. Against a 135x47 twintip. YES its wide but its also ridden on the edge FAR more then your raceboard. Its much shorter.
And then we hear.. well Supa needed to walk up to his belly first. Making the upwind factor kinda non excisting. But ofcourse you will tell a different story. You need to protect your :rollgrin: ego.

Stop with your constant pointless blabbering replies. If you would have left it within the first 20 posts i would have actually thought you made good sense and maybe had a point. But then you went into Stalking Ego personal vendetta modus with the most stupid claims yourself. You spend over 150 posts on just this topic... dude... you need a mental check...

Like i said the topic started pretty valid and understandable by Pump. Sadly the claim is a little different then he originally understood and people made it in. Which kinda makes a big difference as a whole. The later posts by Pump... well i think they were kinda sad and obviously hidden agenda driven or maybe an even better possibility. THERE IS A TROLL IN THE DUNGEON.
(your last post Pump... even I dont really agree fully.. GOOD post! )

now i would also suggest Toby to kill this topic. Its been pointless for the last 50 pages.


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Mine was a genuine civil question

I guess I should not have expected a civil answer

Well UK Surf you obviously don't know me nor me you.

And for that I'm glad. As it seems your a prick

Easy to call people names


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 Post subject: Re: Epic Infinity & Bullshit Light Wind Claims
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:11 pm 
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OK - time to get this topic back on track. Herewith, an UPDATED summary of the issues:

There are a LOT of bullshit claims by kite companies regarding light wind capabilities. NO kite will perform in < 7-8 knots. The owners and distributors of the Epic Infinity are among the worst offenders. To claim the Epic Infinity can perform in "2-4 knots" (even if it is with a SUP) is ridiculous and a blatant lie and leaves the company wide open to claims from disgruntled users.

WIND GRADIENT & FETCH
The use of anecdotal evidence to try to support a generalisation is always suspicious. Epic's owners continually posting videos & images of kites flying in conditions without whitecaps and claiming "5 knots" are misleading; obviously wind gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient and/or short wind "fetch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetch_(geography) are involved.

RELATIVE KITE PERFORMANCE
The ONLY way to gauge the RELATIVE performance of kites in light winds is to fly them side-by-side, with similarly experienced riders and similar boards.

LIGHT WIND KITE DESIGN
It is simply not possible for the Epic Infinity (V1, 2, or 3) to surpass significantly the performance of every other light wind kite in existence. There is NOT enough energy for ANY kite to perform in "2-4 knots of wind". With BIG light wind kites, various modifications have been tested over many years: Fast-turning big kites need to be fat (i.e. lower aspect ration & long middle struts), but the payoff is poorer upwind ability and slightly inferior low-end. Narrower (high aspect ratio) kites go upwind better, but turn more slowly. e.g. Flysurfer's "Speeds" are very narrow, but very SLOW turning. There is no such thing as a fast-turning, ultra-low end, exceptional upwind, easily relaunchable kite with a lot of range; there's always a trade-off.

EPIC INFINITY'S DEEP LUFF CURVE CAUSES PROBLEMS
Laughingman wrote:
1. (for me) it sat too far back in the window making edging up wind almost impossible unless you were on a light wind specific board
2. and if you were on a light wind board it was easy to lose speed control since edging against it was near impossible … but it still yanked me downwind because it sits so far back in the window.
The problem with designing a ~16m kite (Infinity V2 and V3) for "light winds" is that the luff curve has to be very deep to "milk" as much low end as possible. This causes the kite to sit VERY deep in the window, leading to the problems "Laughingman" outlined, i.e. poor upwind ability, a tendency to yank the rider downwind, extremely poor top-end, and poor ability to absorb gusts.

For obvious reasons, a ~16m kite will NEVER have the low end of a larger kite. The Epic Infinity probably shouldn't even be called a "light wind kite"; 16m kites are more "light-medium" wind kites. To make up for the lack of surface area, the Infinity's designers have deepened the luff curve, with obvious NEGATIVE tradeoffs.

Epic Infinity V1 & V2 INFERIOR
The Epic V2 Infinity was tested alongside other light wind kites (e.g. North Dyno 18m) and was found to be inferior.
davesails7 wrote:
I've been riding a 2011 18m Dyno for the last few months and have been really impressed. I've ridden it while others rode…Epic Infinity…, so can compare low end by how I was able to get on the water vs. the others. Who knows what actual wind speeds were up in the air at the kite. I think side by side comparison is much more helpful than endless videos of a kite riding alone on glassy water.
vs. Infinity: Dyno was stable in the air, never fell out of the sky for 4 hours of light wind riding. Two guys with Infinities were struggling to keep their kites in the air most of the time.
Objective testing of previous versions of the "Infinity" showed it had inferior power to other kites in light winds: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2011/05/e ... te-review/
Dimitri M wrote:
I have video of the Infinity V2 in action from 5 to 10 knots real soon. Did I say 5 knots!!!! No way..... !
The Infinity V3 failed in 8 knots (see below). The V2 performing in 5k? Complete bullshit.

Epic Infinity V3 INFERIOR
The INFERIORITY of the Epic Infinity V3 was demonstrated conclusively in a head-to-head comparison with the 19m Core. It failed THE major criterion of light wind kite performance: the ability to get the rider going early in LIGHT winds.
SupaEZ wrote:
I would have written (Dimitri M) a check right there and then if his kite was better than mine...but it was not. I did get going earlier in the light wind that we had 7-9k max avg 8k. But he needed 7-11kn avg 9k.......which never happened.
SupaEZ wrote:
His kite needed more wind to get going.

I was 100 ft away from beach on a full plane in 8k. He was 10 ft away from the beach on a sub-plane working hard not to end up on beach also in 8k. Right before we crossed (dead onshore wind) … Made sure he saw me...i looked into the white of his eyes. Did a 6 ft air forward 1 1/2 transition with kite downloop to toeside and planed off on the other tack

For the short time we were both able to go out i did 5 type jumps/ transitions. Many with looping the kite effortlessly.

He was only able to get one 4ft air back roll transition and landed in an insufficient amount of water. He was then grounded.
End of story.

…the issue here is who is BS "ing" who here about LW performance.

I felt like i was riding against someone with a smaller size kite.....OOOPS i was !

Epic's Bad Sportsmanship & Fundamental Dishonesty
Recently, EPIC's ~16m V3 Infinity challenged a 19m kite to a "duel". Epic lost. During the duel, despite having plenty of opportunity to use line extensions and a surfboard, Epic refused to do so, "because (he) didn't need them". But to subsequently use this as an excuse for losing is …. pathetic and fundamentally dishonest. This fundamental dishonesty was compounded by outright slander, claiming the opponent had to swim out to get started.

Epic Infinity V3 Will LOSE Even More Low End
The Epic Infinity V3 is still being revised:
DimitriM wrote:
…we are still working on perfecting the High end of the INFINITY v3.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to give a kite more high end without compromising low end. Hence, the Epic Infinity V3 will become even more INFERIOR in light winds.

Epic Lies & Exaggerations
Epic's owners are well known to stretch the truth, e.g.:
Dimitri M wrote:
Infinity V2 has the power of a 19 meter but turns like a 14 meter. :thumb:
Compared to the Core19m kite, the Epic Infinity V3 was noticeably INFERIOR; it certainly didn't have the "power of a 19m".

SUP-kiting in 9 Knots
Despite the "2-4" knot claims, the Epic Infinity CANNOT perform on a SUP until ~ 9 knots.
Dimitri M wrote:
Quote:
Poster: PVITfrumBYRAM
....Personally I like your kites, I just don't like the approach as much. That's great you are getting people stoked at how well the kite can fly in such light conditions, but the reality is it was more than 2-4 knots. Maybe it was that light during a lull on the water and that's why you dropped the kite in the water, but there was a steady breeze.
As for the gentleman with the 21 meter foil, he was inexperienced and could barely fly that kite in 8-10 mph on a different day.
Hello Paoloe or should I call you Mr.PVITfrumBYRAM? I wish I knew who I am talking to. You said on your post above that you like my kites but don't like the approach as much!!! What do you mean by that?
I remember that day Chris Moor who is the manager of theKitty Hawk Kites store and probably your boss …. Are you Paulo the one who works and teaches at KHK on RRD!!!
:thumb:
UKSurf wrote:
Translation: If you question my over the top claims again I will tell your boss who sells my kites

In addition, at a recent visit to Cocoa Beach, Epic's owner claimed the ability to SUP-kite in:
Dimitri M wrote:
3 to 6 knots
In response, the following was posted by a knowledgeable local:
SupaEZ wrote:
... the Patrick Air Force Base windmeter reading (is) just a few miles upwind of Dimitri: Wind was SSW 200 degrees...that is why the ocean is so glassy...i should know i live here 30 years. He was out between 2 and 4 pm.... we see clearly that the wind was always more than........... 10 mph :happybirthday: .......those are government's wind meters....very accurate... :surf: :sun:

Despite the claimed performance in "2-4" or "3-6k", quite clearly, the Epic Infinity cannot perform on a SUP until >10mph (9k). This has been confirmed by reliable objective observers and wind speed measurements. It is interesting to note the hostile and personalised nature of the attacks by Epic

EPIC SLAMS BLADE
Not only does Epic stretch the truth about the Infinity, it also unfairly slams its competitors:
UKSurf wrote:
Dimitri M wrote:
The difference from the INFINITY V2 vs the FAT LADY is that the INFINITY v2 turns faster and has better pop. But the power is piratically the same after testing them.
Now the INFINITY V3 is something different.
:thumb:

Why did Momi design an inferior kite for Blade? :roll: I honestly think this claiming your kites are superior to everyone else's will only backfire. If it is better at one thing then it will be worse at something else, most people appreciate that kite design these days is about finely balanced trade-offs NOT one kite being better than another.

Light Wind Showdown
While the Epic Infinity V3 was shown to be INFERIOR to the Core 19m, a formal light-wind "showdown" amongst the biggest claimers (Flysurfer, Epic) and others (North, Core, Blade, Ozone, Slingshot, etc) would be one way to clear this up once and for all.

FAKE FORUM NAMES, ABUSE, & BONHOMIE
Epic's supporters admit to creating fake personas on this forum, replete with the same retarded spelling, grammar, and syntax. The fake personas push Epic products & abuse anyone who DARES to question their claims. These fake personas, e.g. Kiteus Maximus (below), personally attack and vilify, unless, of course, you agree to stop criticising Epic kites:
Kiteus Maximus wrote:
Whatever dude. You created me. If you don't like me then stop creating me.
Kite2Heaven wrote:
PMU - you really are stupid if you are resorting to walking backwards with a kite !!! … Otherwise "ALL" wind readings are BULLSHIT just like yourself !!
Of course, walking backwards with a kite is not a recognised way of testing its low-end, UNLESS you are making claims that it can fly in "2-4 knots". It would be EASY to test Epic's "2-4 knot" claim by putting up the Infinity in a school hall or similar & walking backwards at the standard walking velocity of 2.7 knots. The lies promoted by EPIC are even more appalling when they are couched in the fake bonhomie, oh so *HILARIOUS* pics of goats, and apparently friendly banter, not to mention the overt aggression and threatening behaviour of the "Kite2Heaven" persona.

STOP THE BULLSHIT: RETURN THEIR KITES
There IS a simple way to put to rest ridiculous claims by Epic or any other kite company: BUY THEIR KITES. If they don't perform in 2-4 knots on a SUP or whatever - let alone below 7-8 knots (and they won't), then return them. A "class action" against these companies, perhaps using this forum as a meeting point, will force these companies to be more truthful.

Ignore the lies. Ignore the propaganda.
No kite can perform under 7-8 knots, let alone 2-4 knots.


Pumpy ……………………… :pump:


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