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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:02 am 
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Guys, the hub height on most serious offshore turbines is 70-80m with an 80m diameter. That means the wake is 30m-40m in the air. (ie higher than your kite)

SSK I'm not sure what you are trying to show with the contrails.
given the right conditions a pressure differential will result in condensation. Wind turbines obtain their drive by using a foil to produce a pressure differential to drive their rotation. In extreme humidity their bound to produce condensation. With falling pressure or temperature, the condensation would not have sufficient energy to overcome the latent heat of vaporization and would not be reabsorbed for quite some time (if at all)

The photo does not indicate large scale turbulence or pressure disruption outside of the immediate wind farm area just a bunch of selective air particals made visible and then mixed around by rotating blades. Take a bunch of smoke machines and spin em around in circles in front of a few low speed fans and the visual effect would be somewhat similar.

A conclusive photo would be to show differences in smoke steams and wind speeds 1km in front and 1 km behind the wind farm or 6 MILES behind in the case of this post between 2 and 25m off the water surface.
most of the studies you quoted indicate that generally the wake effects are cleared up after 10-15 rotor diameters. (800m) and yes large scale wind farms 8 x 10 arrays of 80m diameter rotors can take 5-20km for wind to recover to 2% of their upstream velocities.
[please take a moment to consider the MASSIVE scale of these wind farms]

However, IF someone has invested in a LARGE scale off shore wind farm you can bet your balls, it's in a location that's F'N WINDY. So 2% isn't even worth mentioning, you're STILL riding your 6m.....

I'm not pro or anti wind farm,I don't believe they are the solution but am aware we need all the help we can get. In the mean time fire up some more nuclear reactors so we can all plug in our electric cars at night and get 200 mpg driving to our favourite kite spot.......


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:22 am 
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What are they gonna do with those rotors when hurricanes approach? ...do they fold back? If left to rotate then they're sure to produce big power but I wouldn't wanna be down wind of them when those canada geese happen to fly through...then the cleanup... massive job... as mentioned before... more studies needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:22 pm 
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Pete there was talk about putting some out off KP/Grand Bend too ... Also there is still plans to put up over 1000 of them from Blue point to parkhill. All I can hope with makeing so much power our bills go down... We don't use 50% of the power being made now, we send it state side.

And for the blades in a hurricanes they just turn sideways and a big electric brake holds it from spinning. Watch them all the time here when it is 30-40knots. . the tips of the blades travel over 200mph . There is a video from overseas on Youtube where one gets out of control and blows apart from spinning too fast... 25m/s is around 56 mph or 48 knots

Image

Just my 2 cents
Terrie


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:50 am 
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Thanks for chiming in Terrie

I'm don't know exactly what the costs are to supply wind energy in place of coal or even better nuclear. What I do know is that our government is subsidizing the cost of wind and solar power to encourage expansion. So it is unlikely that our bills will go down over time. They are just trying to reduce the immediate impact till they gain enough public support. Fair enough, we voted them in. Just don't expect the cost of energy to go down... At least until cold fusion is invented...
The real challenge is balancing the load. We have a huge differential between daytime use and night time use. This means our infrastructure needs to be able to fullfil the highest demands during the day but needs to scale back during the night... That's the problem with nuclear, its not scalable over short periods of time. Solutions are not easy or obvious.... But be prepared to spend more or use less, that is our future


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:52 am 
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Pete no problem my friend...

look what i just found ... look off KP, PF, GB
http://ontario-wind-turbines.org/owt-maps.html

Terrie


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:09 am 
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Laughingman wrote:
Thanks for chiming in Terrie

I'm don't know exactly what the costs are to supply wind energy in place of coal or even better nuclear. What I do know is that our government is subsidizing the cost of wind and solar power to encourage expansion. So it is unlikely that our bills will go down over time. They are just trying to reduce the immediate impact till they gain enough public support. Fair enough, we voted them in. Just don't expect the cost of energy to go down... At least until cold fusion is invented...
The real challenge is balancing the load. We have a huge differential between daytime use and night time use. This means our infrastructure needs to be able to fullfil the highest demands during the day but needs to scale back during the night... That's the problem with nuclear, its not scalable over short periods of time. Solutions are not easy or obvious.... But be prepared to spend more or use less, that is our future



Cold fusion is improbable.

Renewable energy will be 70-80% of our energy by 2050.

Now in terms of subsidies...the oil has been indirectly subsidized in the US for a very very long time. The current subsidy of windfarm is negible compared to the oil industry subsidy.

Actually even wihtout subisitdy windfarms are economically sustainable with current energy prices., however the cost is mainly upfront, and people are hesitant to to stuff their cash there...so the government steps in.
If you are really interested in this, check out the numbers in this article:
http://www.nei.org/corporatesite/media/filefolder/60_Years_of_Energy_Incentives_-_Analysis_of_Federal_Expenditures_for_Energy_Development_-_1950-2010.pdf

i've added an easy to read table of numbers :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:19 am 
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This is also an interesting read on energy planning and use:

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/energy-futurist/reframing-the-transportation-debate/128?tag=mantle_skin;content

Personally I like big plans, changes and visions. Those are the ones that makes for success for countries. Doing the unstuck dance does not bring a country up to speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:59 am 
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I can give some real life feedback on a much smaller scale. Last fall i went to Naggs Head, NC slightly north of true OBX. At Janette's Pier they have installed 3 giant wind turbines to provide the new pier with electricity. I was there for the Easterns Surf contest but the wind was cranking the whole week so, of course, i was kiting.

I did a couple DWers from a few miles north of the pier to the pier and on one occasion i went past the pier. Other than the normal shadowing that occurs around piers/buildings/trees i didn't notice any other effects. About 200-300 yards past the pier the shadowing was totally unnoticeable. The only noticeable effect was the whizzing sound of the turbines spinning at full speed powering the entire pier, parking lot and lifeguards with power courtesy of mother nature.

Im not buying into the idea that a wind farm more than 6 miles offshore will have any noticeable effect on kiting conditions. The majority of people i see kiting on the OBX kite on the sound side anyways, which almost always has some shadowing from the beach, roads, houses, telephone poles and other objects.

I dont live in Hatteras or even NC and this decision is totally up to the residents of those islands. My personal opinion, bring it on! The people of Hatteras have already been pounded by ecological lobbyists and bird lovers. If these farms can provide cheap, clean and sustainable power as well as TONS OF JOBS i think it is a good idea. Good luck convincing the bird lovers to build anything that will effect their beloved piping plovers (aka rats w/ wings).


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:31 pm 
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tkettlepoint wrote:
Pete no problem my friend...

look what i just found ... look off KP, PF, GB
http://ontario-wind-turbines.org/owt-maps.html

Terrie


Terrie, that is very concerning, as it is now we can see the flashing lights of the turbines on the Michigan side, so much for our pristine Lake front.

Pete


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 Post subject: Re: Offshore wind farm may wreck NE winds for the Outer Bank
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:32 pm 
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tautologies

Interesting information there. Thanks for sorting that out for me.


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