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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Tone wrote:
That's fine you think I might be wrong.

when trade on a 12m kite is £550 from importer, how much do you really think the brand is making?


When you say trade? Do you mean price from importer to store?
I think the stores pay a lot more than that. I think stores make about 30% as I think the importers do. This is not something I know, but from other sporting goods industries...

Actually I do not know. I would think maybe 50% which would the price to kiteboarding companies maybe 450-600?

I do think it depends on what cost you take into consideration. Are you talking about materials only? Or the fact that you have to run a whole organization around it too?

I did this long guesstimation long time ago, but could not find it.. I think I was pretty close. If I was to guess I would say kite from factory would be $250-300 (kite only)? That is not the full cost for a kite though. It is a complete misrepresentation to say so.

Now when people read that they go wow that is very different from the price I am paying, yet they do not take into calculations all the other things going into a kite...neither do they realize that when they pay for a can of corn, the corn itself is maybe 6-9 cents of the $1.50..probably less, the rest is packaging, transport, quality assurance.

In kiting you also pay for R&D and the marked is very very small. We've had this discussion countless times here but for some people this is just really hard to grasp...

edit: numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:10 am 
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When i said price of kite i was purely talking about the cost of making a single kite and not taking into account any R&D or marketing or shipping. Just to be clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:04 am 
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If I'll get a strutless kite it will probably be from Greg's company, just because i think it is a great thing what he have done and that he deserves the credit


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:00 am 
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mike holmes wrote:
If I'll get a strutless kite it will probably be from Greg's company, just because i think it is a great thing what he have done and that he deserves the credit


Completely agree with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:54 am 
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edt wrote:
Tone wrote:
kites cost under/around $100 to make and deliver.


Spoken like someone who has never built anything in his entire life. Have you ever ridden a Walmart skateboard? The first time you land a jump, both trucks and the board break into pieces. That's what a $100 kite would be like. No stainless steel, cheap stamped iron, no dyneema sk75 cheap twisted polyester, no teijin t9600, waxed cotton for the canopy and the whole thing held together with cotton thread.


I wonder if there is a market for something like that, something that would only last ~1 season but that would cost like 150 Eur

wallmart is selling skateboards, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:40 am 
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Starsky wrote:
Wonder how far the strutless movement will go. My prediction: it will settle into a light to medium wind design.

Cant really go less strut, so this marks the apex of the pendulum swing. Will it settle at 2 or 3? I guess its already there (3) for most brands.

It will take a while to get a real objective look at it from an overall market point of view, but ease of use, and simplicity will play out against flight characteristics, sheeting range, wind range etc.

Obviously trailing edge flutter can be for the most part eliminated with planform alone, but it looks like the result leaves you with a kite that is sensitive to oversheeting. Why else would Naish market this specifically to intermediate/advanced riders? Not a big deal if you have the understanding to trim the kite accordingly, but as we know that does not apply to a market at large. You gotta make a kite almost dummy proof these days.

If the C kite design is still alive and well with its ongoing dominance of both freestyle and looping and recently big air comps then I cant really forsee this concept sweeping us all up over the comming seasons. I can however see it as the mainstay of the highly lucrative light wind performance market. Kiters are nuts once they get addicted and will shell out whatever if they think its going to have them ripping in next to no wind.


From what Greg at BoardridingMaui says about it, the solution is to keep a bit of tension on the back lines. The kite will depower more, but it has a sweetspot until the canopy starts to develop some slackness. He has said the the top end is not a selling point, but from what he says it sounds like it flies well in the sheeting range where the canopy is taut.
That could be why Naish do not include beginners as part of the ideal market for the kite, as you tend to ride more powered and may work the kite more and have to edge a bit more instead of sheeting out.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Starsky wrote:
Wonder how far the strutless movement will go. My prediction: it will settle into a light to medium wind design.
...
Obviously trailing edge flutter can be for the most part eliminated with planform alone, but it looks like the result leaves you with a kite that is sensitive to oversheeting. Why else would Naish market this specifically to intermediate/advanced riders? Not a big deal if you have the understanding to trim the kite accordingly, but as we know that does not apply to a market at large. You gotta make a kite almost dummy proof these days...

i agree, light wind only.
why? this is quite simple. lets say i weigh 105kg and i have 17sqm and 10sqm Cloud kites. now when i jump with 17sqm my weight is distributed on the much bigger surface of the canopy and ripping force is distributed on the longer seams than with the 10sqm kite. but material of the canopy is still the same and the seams are made the same.
besides, gusts in the 10sqm day deliver much more energy than the gusts in the 17sqm day.
so obviously more both static and dynamic tensions on the every square inch of canopy cloth and every inch of the panels seam. struts would helped to distribute the tensions more evenly through the surface.
now, which one stays in shape longer, which one blows up first?

other thing. funny how almost immediately after announcing of the BRM Cloud kite Airush and Naish, suddenly in mid-season, announced their own strutless programs.
i suspect they did it just to claim whats left of the bragging rights. because obviously both Airush and Naish were not prepared for this! meaningless catalog cgi pictures, Düsseldorf Boot expo footage of the probably just the mock-up of the kite hanging under the sealing and no real videos of flying kites.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... RNnpT6NHf4

however, imo, it is bigger challenge to keep the wanted profile of the wing near the leading edge than the eliminating flutter of the trailing edge. that is why Naish markets its strutless specifically to intermediate/advanced riders, it means lowest profile not so easy to fold on LE bladder. that is why only small 10sqm kite, and that is why use of mini battens.

good luck marina for testing the promised kites...


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:23 pm
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Location: drtuba.eu, kite-stuff.org, eXtremist.si, kajtar.si
The ones who knows me around here from hobby designing scene I am always ahead with the designs, open to new, fresh ideas. Some of my work is documented also here: https://vimeo.com/kajtar

I need to say that I like the Trip since it is the closest to the idea I have posted in my thread already (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2368536)



Has reinforcement done better, has LE profiles "helpers" made better and better wingtip design than other strutless designs.

These are the things I like.

What I didn't mentioned in my old posts and what maybe only few people noticed in last strutless videos around here is that a severe fluttering of the highest point of the profile happens when kite is depowered/bar away. It may flutter almost thru the whole wingspan almost from the wingtip to wingtip which also directly implies to severe bar shaking. Which increases with the wind speed.

And that was the main issue I had not go into production of my "modern kite" strutless ILE kite idea (modern kite because no one ever posted strutless idea on open c/delta/sle etc designs before - there exist one old C strutless kite just for the record). And that's why I still like that my kites are with few struts - as they do prevent unwanted stuff moving around the canopy for too much.

Trip may have less problems with the canopy since I know they use radial panels stiching since I know that distribute load better.

So to NAISH - DOC TUBA would like to test your TRIP kite please! :)

ronnie wrote:
Starsky wrote:
Wonder how far the strutless movement will go. My prediction: it will settle into a light to medium wind design.

Cant really go less strut, so this marks the apex of the pendulum swing. Will it settle at 2 or 3? I guess its already there (3) for most brands.

It will take a while to get a real objective look at it from an overall market point of view, but ease of use, and simplicity will play out against flight characteristics, sheeting range, wind range etc.

Obviously trailing edge flutter can be for the most part eliminated with planform alone, but it looks like the result leaves you with a kite that is sensitive to oversheeting. Why else would Naish market this specifically to intermediate/advanced riders? Not a big deal if you have the understanding to trim the kite accordingly, but as we know that does not apply to a market at large. You gotta make a kite almost dummy proof these days.

If the C kite design is still alive and well with its ongoing dominance of both freestyle and looping and recently big air comps then I cant really forsee this concept sweeping us all up over the comming seasons. I can however see it as the mainstay of the highly lucrative light wind performance market. Kiters are nuts once they get addicted and will shell out whatever if they think its going to have them ripping in next to no wind.


From what Greg at BoardridingMaui says about it, the solution is to keep a bit of tension on the back lines. The kite will depower more, but it has a sweetspot until the canopy starts to develop some slackness. He has said the the top end is not a selling point, but from what he says it sounds like it flies well in the sheeting range where the canopy is taut.
That could be why Naish do not include beginners as part of the ideal market for the kite, as you tend to ride more powered and may work the kite more and have to edge a bit more instead of sheeting out.


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:12 pm 
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A lot of speculation here...

I'd say wait and see instead of making judgements on something without any experience. :thumb:

I would say there is more than just light wind applications for these kites for sure. You really have to stop thinking there is so much flapping on the strutless kites. Once you see that, and you feel the weight, I think your mind will change.

I'd probably say check them out, instead of making up your mind before they really have been vetted.

The fact the the trip packs down even smaller than the ride is major. I could already easily fit 3 rides in a bag from another brand.

First time I took out a park and a ride I was surprised at how little the canopy moves when riding. Same with the 8 cloud.

Super exciting developments!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Naish mid-season catalog reveals no-strut kite!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:28 pm 
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IMHO, the current strutless inflatable configuration is akin to 'painting oneself into a corner.' Certain compromises are required to compensate for the inherent lack of structure. Namely, a highly conical geometry with a tight, low-stretch trailing edge to maintain canopy inflation and flatter foil profiles to reduce luffing/bubbling/flapping. Combined, these attributes create a low AOA / sheeting range with sensitive handling and compromised range / VMG. Added complexity such as LE battens, TE battens, full battens, larger tubes, bridles, ram-air skins, etc. can ameliorate the compromises but when progressively applied also progressively negate the simplicity and low weight / cost. Ultimately, one must accept that (given the present state-of-the-art materials) it is a self-limiting construct. My 2¢...

:thumb: to BRM for going ahead with it..


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