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 Post subject: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Location: SRQ
I have helped many friends since 2002 with their bladder and valve repairs. I am looking to see if anyone else has had problems with the new Cabrinha bladder material. It is much thinner than previous bladder material.

My friend has a 2012 14m Cab' Switchblade which uses the thinner material. He is an experienced rider and never abuses his kites. He is also a dedicated to Cabrinha having rode their SBs since 2008 and owning several, Contras too.

3 weeks ago he blew the leading edge while pumping it on the beach (only 1/2 way pumped up). I helped him pull the LE whereas I remarked "WTH?? - this material is super thin!!". The LE experienced a blow out near a strut 8 inches away from a valve. Upon inspection of the blow out it was a typical "stretched out and blew" scenario. Upon inspecting the entire LE we saw several small stretches (aneurysms).

The local Cab' dealer filed a warranty claim for a replacement leading edge bladder BUT Cabrinha had NO LEs in the entire USA for a 14m so they sent it to the BLADDERMAN in Florida who repaired it. Cabrinha asked the dealer to ask the rider how he put away his kite - did he roll or fold it? - he said he folded it - Cabrinha said that was the problem - you must take care and gently roll it.

I have never heard this in my life and think it is a BS answer

Two days ago we reinstalled the repaired LE. We inspected the LE for no twists and no voids, massaged the LE into position to get any wrinkles out and after pumping it up 1/2 way it blew out this time in a different spot. When we contacted the dealer she said .... Oh, you installed it wrong. Another funny answer IMO

The purpose of this email is to see if anyone else has had problems with the LE (I am not slamming Cabrinha because I think they make great kites. I DO BELIEVE that using this lighter material for the sake of reducing a few grams or weight is a big mistake)

Comments riders? Suggestions Cabrinha reps?


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cab le 2.jpg
cab le 2.jpg [ 71.98 KIB | Viewed 2659 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Location: In the search for wind
I think I have picked up somewhere that Cabrinha uses lighter bladders in the larges sizes to save weight, Something that should be a positive thing as long as it does not make the kites more fragile. (sure, a thinner bladder will deal with less abuse.) But this is something im sure Cabrinha has put into its calculations since bigger kites are ridden in less wind with less abuse.
I only have 12 meter as my largest kite and the bladders on my kites have never needed to be fixed or exchanged so I guess they use the normal bladder material.

Seems like the dealer did what they can the first time if there was no bladder to obtain (sounds weird since Cabrinha is huge in the US)..

What I think is weird is that you say the LE popped after being halv-inflated.. No bladder (or condom) will pop if there is no pressure in it..

Was the Leading edge free of twists? Did you use talkium when putting the LE in?

If I was the dude or dudette helping you with the warranty I would have offered to put the Leading edge in with you so I could see the process and make sure there was no misunderstandings and that it was done correctly.

Have you checked inside the LE for sharp pointy stuff that could damage the LE?

If the rep said the reason was that you folded and not rolled the kite.. thats BS...

the whole thing sounds weird to me, On my local beaches we havent had any problems with the Cabrinha bladders at all, not even the LW crossbows..

I would take direct contact with Cabrinha and try to explaing the situation and see what they can do directly. I got a bar that was damaged from shipping and they sent me a new one without me needing to send my old one in.. win/win!

Im very happy with my dealer atleast :)


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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Cabrinha uses Poly Ether Bladders instead of Poly Urethane.

Poly Ether is supposed to have more stable material properties over a wide temperature range.

I think you got a bad one.

My 2012 9m and 12m kites have been ridden hard and I've never had an issue.

I remember when I had Epic kites I had to change the bladders 3 times because of defective material. It could be possible you got a bad one or there was maybe a small batch of bad ones.

Considering it popped when it was half way inflated I would also wonder a bit if maybe you had a bladder improperly aligned or twisted.

Good luck dude hope you get it solved.


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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Location: The Gorge
I've slammed all my kites on beaches, parking lots (lol), and the ocean a lot working on tricks

my 2012 switchblade got a hole in it from self landing on the beach from a tiny shell

just sayin


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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:05 am 
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Location: Hood River OR | Ft. Lauderdale FL | Rio de Janeiro
C Johnson wrote:
Cabrinha uses Poly Ether Bladders instead of Poly Urethane.


Polyurethane film can be either polyether or polyester. Yes, it is a polyether just like all other PU bladders should be. The polyester is much stronger but not suitable for marine applications (used in airships, conveyor belts, etc). Polyester PU was accidentally used by Cabrinha in 2001 (might be off by a year) and they had bladders disintegrating if packed up wet and left for any amount of time.

You do have to remember that a bladder can not swell or rupture if it's supported by the sewn sleeve of the kite. A bladder that is properly supported by the fabric can't rupture without the sleeve failing first.

I have seen incidents where bladders do get out of whack when folding or rolling a kite. That's why it's pretty important to have the bladders talced very well so that they don't catch on themselves and can slide back into place as you pump them up. We found that talc would slowly wear off after use so we went with a matte finish on the PU film that we make our assembled bladders out of. Took one more variable out of the equation.

It does appear that Cabrinha has chosen to use a slightly thinner film to save on weight. I think it's just under .003" when most are .0033"-.0039". We have built race bladders out of .001" material and they work. However, the thinner they get the more fragile they are. It's just the price you have to pay for performance. We could make bombproof bladders that weighed 10 lbs each but no one would enjoy using them.

I recommend always keeping an eye on the leading edge of your kite when inflating it just to make sure it's filling out correctly. If you're vigilant you will probably be able to avoid surprises when you least want them.

Casey


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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:01 pm 
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airtimekite wrote:
C Johnson wrote:
Cabrinha uses Poly Ether Bladders instead of Poly Urethane.


Polyurethane film can be either polyether or polyester. Yes, it is a polyether just like all other PU bladders should be. The polyester is much stronger but not suitable for marine applications (used in airships, conveyor belts, etc). Polyester PU was accidentally used by Cabrinha in 2001 (might be off by a year) and they had bladders disintegrating if packed up wet and left for any amount of time.

You do have to remember that a bladder can not swell or rupture if it's supported by the sewn sleeve of the kite. A bladder that is properly supported by the fabric can't rupture without the sleeve failing first.

I have seen incidents where bladders do get out of whack when folding or rolling a kite. That's why it's pretty important to have the bladders talced very well so that they don't catch on themselves and can slide back into place as you pump them up. We found that talc would slowly wear off after use so we went with a matte finish on the PU film that we make our assembled bladders out of. Took one more variable out of the equation.

It does appear that Cabrinha has chosen to use a slightly thinner film to save on weight. I think it's just under .003" when most are .0033"-.0039". We have built race bladders out of .001" material and they work. However, the thinner they get the more fragile they are. It's just the price you have to pay for performance. We could make bombproof bladders that weighed 10 lbs each but no one would enjoy using them.

I recommend always keeping an eye on the leading edge of your kite when inflating it just to make sure it's filling out correctly. If you're vigilant you will probably be able to avoid surprises when you least want them.

Casey


If the LE is a light color fabric you can mark the bladder with a magic marker and visually confirm that it is straight. If bladders were printed with a dark line from valve to valve that might save some twisted blowouts. But it's not really necessary, you should be able to feel or see if it is twisted if you take your time as you pump it up as Casey suggested.


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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Location: SRQ
thank you for everyone's replies and suggestions

I am disappointed NO Cabrinha reps addressed the subject - I think that tells me something

good winds to everyone


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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Location: The Gorge
I do remember seeing a post about lighter (thinner) bladder material being used in kites, but it was a slingshot rep (probably shymac) talking about the turbine. not sure if that's the post you were thinking of.

either way, just from feel I don't think the material is any weaker than other brands. My instance was probably bad luck, even though my sb had more issues than any of my other kites. It seems like it's about the same to me


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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:23 pm
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Location: drtuba.eu, kite-stuff.org, eXtremist.si, kajtar.si
Hi,

we have all Cabrinha bladders from 2008 on available online,

http://www.drtuba.eu/Replacement-Bladders/Cabrinha.html

If you need it prior to 2008 just send me a request. Bladders are made with our standard tough EU made TPU.

:bye:


Last edited by Gigi;) on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cabrinha 2012 leading edge - thinner material
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:06 pm
Posts: 118
I bought my 14M 2012 Cab Switch in July 2011 just on launch and it has been a great kite with a few dozen sessions over the 20 months. I Look after my kites and this kite has never been slammed into the water and always cleaned and packed well, I thought.

Just yesterday I had a session for an hour and when I finished, placed the kite on grass, started to deflate the kite and after 5 seconds a pop. At home I checked it out and I have blown a three inch hole in the leading edge 12 inches from the first strut. Very similar to yours. I have read up on this today and figure the following has occurred. Either I have not folded correctly, or when pumping up have not laid out the kite fully and pinched the kite bladder. Strange it blew on deflate though......hunting for new bladder. :(


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