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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:09 pm 
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rightguard wrote:
Richard I can't tell you why it's such a big deal to kiters or swimmers but I might be able to help a little.

The west side of Ka'a point is known as the Pro Pool and the only flat water spot on the whole island. Let me repeat that... The only flat water spot on the island. There are tons of great places to kite on Maui but this one is special.

Now of corse there are tons of different ways to kite around the swim pond other places to go, or to just swim but that is not the point.

For years kiters have been using this spot and for convenience kited threw the swim area. Depending on the wind derection it can be required, but most of the time its just easier. Of course you could always just land a mile down the beach and just walk back. Would you walk a mile back when you could just kite threw the pond where everyone else goes. There are two other swim areas close by and they are roped off. For some reason this one has never been roped off. I would guess that is because no one cared if the kiters where there. Kiters and families have been getting along forever.

People love to join a fight and are now taking sides. There are more people on the beach now then ever. Everyone wants to be a part of it and often just get in the way to prove a point. What is the solution, I don't know, but I hope both sides get something they want.

Hope that answers some of your questions without taking sides.


Thank you rightguard for taking the time to try to answer my questions.

I have no intention of kiting there and the situation does not affect my travel plans etc.

My only concerns are:

A. How the situation might negatively affect access in general.

B. How the situation may relate to inappropriate kiter attitudes and conduct.

C. How the situation relates to deficient beach use management.

D. Attacks upon people who go through the effort to stand up for their rights – probably by people who are too lazy and/or afraid to ever stand up for their own rights.

So far EVERY bit of evidence so far divulged about the situation indicates the following:

1. Legally, non-kiters have exclusive use of the pond and kiters are prohibited.

2. Kiters have been violating this prohibition for a long time.

3. It has apparently only recently become a problem FOR KITERS because some non-kiters have been insisting that that the prohibition be enforced.

4. Assuming that it is true that there have not been previous serious objections to kiters violations (I personally think this is unlikely), this in NO WAY indicates that previous violations did not interfere with the non-kiters’ enjoyment. It is possible (likely) that annoyed non-kiters simply let their rights be infringed rather than deal with conflict resulting from complaining.

5. These currently complaining non-kiters have a PERFECT RIGHT to insist on enforcement. This is the PURPOSE of legislation that creates prohibitions. People that are afraid to enforce their rights DON”T HAVE ANY.

6. There is NO NECESSITY for kiters to use the pond. They do so ONLY because it allows them to enjoy their sport more conveniently. And apparently this convenience is magnified with offshore winds.

7. Rather than change or attempt to change the prohibition such that kiters are not prohibited, some kiters simply keep violating the non-kiters’ right to a kiterless pond, creating wrongful conflict which BESIDES violating the non-kiters’ rights to the pond ADDITIONALLY destroys much of the general pleasure associated with peaceable beach use. Furthermore, it is a likely inference that a significant portion of some kiters’ motivation for continued violations is SPECIFICALLY to create enough unpleasantness for the non-kiters such that they are ILLEGALLY driven from their entitled area.

8. There are a relatively small number of violators, but for reasonable and justified reasons, the non-kiters don’t want ANY.

9. So far, the authority charged with proper beach management has abdicated its responsibility to enforce the prohibition such that NO ACTUAL ENFORCEMENT has EVER occurred.

10. Because of the high visibility of the location as the premier kiting spot in the WORLD, its kiting problems can be expected to attract the MAXIMUM amount of attention.

11. If it appears that kiters arrogantly FORCE non-kiters to concede their rights regarding beach use, especially for NO other reason than CONVENIENCE (not wanting to get WET ?), this is extraordinarily BAD public relations material which can be used by anti-kiters for YEARS to come, WORLDWIDE.

12. So far, the situation appears to be the result of the 100% unjustified conduct of a few selfish kiters who, because of no enforcement, feel that they are somehow entitled to ILLEGALLY FORCE the non-kiters to concede their legal rights.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Last edited by RichardM on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Richard. wtf. why not respect that they handle it? They are capable people.


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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:24 pm 
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tautologies wrote:
Richard. wtf. why not respect that they handle it? They are capable people.


I'm an obnoxious, opinionated a$$hole.
And see # 11.


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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:31 pm 
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RichardM wrote:
I'm an obnoxious, opinionated a$$hole.
And see # 11.


Fine. #11 is not the right assumption. You are making some leaps. I am not responding with specifics because we have been asked to not stoke the fire. They want a peaceful resolution and I do not think we are helping the matter on KF.


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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:43 pm 
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RichardM wrote:
tautologies wrote:
Richard. wtf. why not respect that they handle it? They are capable people.


I'm an obnoxious, opinionated a$$hole.
And see # 11.


not at all...Richard.

I see you as verbose, with a penchant for minutia, and a bullet point mentality...

and rail at the thuoght of the tome one might receive having left their can at the curb post garbage pick up day...

e.g. that homey can sure enough dent your forehead with the length of it alone.
q
would I work that hard for so little?

I doubt it--- props for the shear all inclusive scope of it...

unreal...
fokiten

ps. not a dis , but you get my vote for the kiter most likely to own a cape and a pair of tights...

read: super hero street cred..


Last edited by fokiten on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:59 pm 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
tautologies wrote:
RichardM wrote:
I'm an obnoxious, opinionated a$$hole.
And see # 11.


Fine. #11 is not the right assumption. You are making some leaps. I am not responding with specifics because we have been asked to not stoke the fire. They want a peaceful resolution and I do not think we are helping the matter on KF.

Does "They want a peaceful resolution " = a JUST resolution ?

I have twice asked for any additional facts which might indicate some justification for their indisputable infringement of the non-kiters' rights.

By "justification" I mean something more than "I don't want to be somewhat inconvenienced".

If there ISN"T any, I would suggest that the best approach would be written apologies to as many non-kiters as want it (specifically denying any liability for any harm), signage making clear kiting is ALWAYS prohibited and development in cooperation with the authority, of a reasonable procedure to obtain EFFECTIVE enforcement (reduced to written instructions).

Of course they always have the right to attempt to remove the prohibition, but until that happens, on the information so far revealed, if I were them, I’d practice self-rescue and drift launching until I could do it without being too inconvenienced.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:22 am 
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RichardM wrote:
...

...
Of course they always have the right to attempt to remove the prohibition, but until that happens, on the information so far revealed, if I were them, I’d practice self-rescue and drift launching until I could do it without being too inconvenienced.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


In the past, i have dropped my kite in the water and rolled up to do
a self rescue, with enough time to have kite in hand and sailing in
by holding the wing-tip , before going through the swimmers ; did that
rather than land the kite in finicky air after a good session.

As the beach at 6-mile gets More popular , i can see most All my
kiting being done off my Hobie-21 , about two coves up-wind of 6-mile.
Lucky that is where the Best wind at Mohave is anyway!

Face it -- the Swimmers are probably NOT gonna just Go away !! :(

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:45 am 
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RichardM wrote:
1. Legally, non-kiters have exclusive use of the pond and kiters are prohibited.

remember reading a user saying that by law a kite, within a swimming zone, is as a water toy; as stupid as it may sound but from a legal perspective things are what they are

if that user is correct I would say that, strictly legally, your initial assumption is not correct and most part of the subsequent logic would need to be reviewed


anyway, hope the guys in Maui can find something that will work for everybody


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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:12 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:05 pm
Posts: 479
Location: Maui
I will reply one more time, just can't help myself.

Kanaha beach has been used by wind sporties for some time now. 20 years ago this area was not used by many except fisherman, divers, canoes and windsurfers. Even with its wonderful surf break it was never very crowded. Now so many more people are using the beach... SUP, surf,kite, windsurf, diving, fishing, swimming and close by tow in surfing. I think it is only natural there will be some problems. Just try and go out surfing on a good day and see how many people are using the space.

I don't think any kiter said..."hell with it, I'll just kite in this swim zone." It was just where we were asked to go to stay away from the airplanes and the windsurfers. If the county wanted to enforce some old swim zone law why wasn't there ropes out like there are 1mile up the beach.

Again I think places are just getting crowded and people are fighting over their perceived rights. Just like how obnoxious Richard can get, so do others. I think the fact that some are kiters has nothing to do with anything.

In an over crowded world we are going to have some fights and arguments but hopefully in the end everyone can hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Try and ask a simple questions instead of throwing stones.


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 Post subject: Re: Maui Kitebeach Issue
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:49 am 
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When people say Hawaii we think immediately about waves and surfing :surf: :surf: :surf: :surf:

So the real deal here are the twintippers going in the flat shallow kiddie pool :mamma:

Go kitesurfing away from shore...forget about kiteboarding....YOU ARE IN HAWAII :cheers:


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