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 Post subject: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Just bought a used waroo on ebay that came with this bar.. thought I was getting the newer redline bar, but now I'm concerned that this bar is not safe?


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:17 pm 
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hi there. that bar is actually from 2008. I highly recomend you to get a newer bar. I had the same expirence as you, bought a nemesis hp and it came with this bar. You can try it yourself, put some pressure on the lines and QR, you'll see the QL rope wont slide. Check on realwatersports.com they have good deals on brand new bars, I bought a 2012 best performance v2 bar for $ 250 a couple of months ago, the safety system is way better, so far I love this bar. And dont hesitate on spending money on it, is your safety what is at stake. In case you dont have the money you could clip your leash on one of the OSR handle, but thats up to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:28 pm 
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I have a bar like that as well that uses the stiffy disk. It does not fully depower when you flag to your leash. I have heard setups like this called 80% depower. Not sure if this one is referred to with that term, but I would say 80% is accurate. With this bar, I just know that as soon as I throw the CL, I immediately pull the leash in and get ahold of a centerline above the bar so I can completely flag the kite. Obviously not the safest system, but I just accept the possibility that it is more likely to have to let my leash go as well if I got in a really bad position.

Also, the material loop and Velcro to release the CL can be awkward and difficult to pull, so I take a little extra time to drill using this CL before I launch.

On the plus side, the swivel works well and for the most part I don't mind using this bar. The depower strap is very easy to pull in, but like many straps, it is more difficult to let out.

Like Jats said above, if you hook your leash to the centerline OSR above the bar it will flag completely. You just can't loop the kite without wrapping the leash around the centerline. (sorry if that was too obvious)


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:03 pm 
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The best thing to do is test it.

Roll your bar around in the sand (this step is VERY important), then get it a bit wet, then roll around in the sand a bit more. Then hang a rope from a tree or balcony, such that you can tie into your harness (all of your weight should be on the harness, and you should be no more than a couple inches off of the ground). Try hitting your QR with you eyes closes. IF IT DOESN'T RELEASE IMMEDIATELY AND ON THE FIRST TRY, DO NOT USE IT.

Throw it away (better yet, send it back to the manufacturer with a complaint and demand a working version, doesn't matter if it is new or used, manufacturers should be held responsible for releasing death traps onto the market).

I have not tried anywhere near all of the bars on the market. The only quick release I've used that works really well is Flexifoil. I used an older North release that was also very reliable, but would occasionally release unintentionally (newer versions probably better). I've not used your version of Best, or the most recent version of Best, but I have a 2011 (I think) Best bar, and it is garbage. It releases very well when clean, but doesn't work when there is sand in it. For that reason alone, I'll probably never buy another Best bar (if they couldn't figure it out by 2011, they probably aren't going to. Their kites are nice, though).

I'm guessing you are a beginner based on your purchase of an older used kite on ebay (nothing wrong with the kite by the way, it is a fine choice if you're on a budget). I can't over-stress the importance of having a working QR, especially when you are just starting out.

You don't need to replace the whole bar, a good kiteshop will sell chicken loop replacements. They aren't super expensive, maybe $50-$75.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:14 pm 
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Nono 07 bar that one... easy to see less black and different barends than 08...
So another reason not to buy secondhand hehe ;) Buy new and you know what you get.
But I used that bar for a long time back then, and never any problem. But the safety is way better now. The release system worked fine, but does not kill the power powered up like modern bars.
The good thing about the bar is QR handles - you can release the whole thing and just hold on to the handle and flag it out. And yes it works nice, used it to selfland really overpowered even with a broken arm.

Quote:
It releases very well when clean, but doesn't work when there is sand in it.
That sounds strange... Have you looked at the mechanism? Very very easy and hard to get it wrong even with it full of sand... same idea as the North bar - you puch away a cuff. Just were did it jam?

Quote:
Throw it away (better yet, send it back to the manufacturer with a complaint and demand a working version, doesn't matter if it is new or used, manufacturers should be held responsible for releasing death traps onto the market).

This was a great and safe bar at it´s time, guess you haven´t bin around since the early days ;) remember way worse systems, and I´ve survived even with some crashed bones hehe, but seriously that is just a lame statement. So if anybody dies from kiting, then it´s the manufacturers fault? Yeah right :lol:

Quote:
You don't need to replace the whole bar, a good kiteshop will sell chicken loop replacements. They aren't super expensive, maybe $50-$75

Sorry you just don´t get it... the chickenloop works fine. Don´t go around talking bullshit if you dont know the gear. The double depowerline gives less depower than the redline, that´s were the big issue is. On this model they had QR-handles on steering lines and lets you fly out the kite on one line, the year after on the front lines as well. The second one was the best bar ever to selfland even in sick stormy conditions in the mountains on hard ice.
Sure newer bars are easier to put back together in the water, but the release works.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:12 am 
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john a wrote:

"It releases very well when clean, but doesn't work when there is sand in it."

That sounds strange... Have you looked at the mechanism? Very very easy and hard to get it wrong even with it full of sand... same idea as the North bar - you puch away a cuff. Just were did it jam?


Yes, I've looked at the mechanism. That jam appear to be due to tightness between the inner plastic piece and the outer plastic cuff. Even after I've cleaned it, I've noticed some variability in difficulty of releasing, as little as about 10 pounds of force, as much as about 20. With some sand in it, that goes way up (maybe 50 or 60 pounds, but that is just a guess).

It is the same idea as others ("punch it to release"), but an idea doesn't count for much if it doesn't work. The QR handle doesn't have a great grip on it, it is simply a bad design that wasn't properly tested before being released.

john a wrote:
This was a great and safe bar at it´s time, guess you haven´t bin around since the early days ;) remember way worse systems

I learned on a 2 line c-kite and a 3-line foil in 2001. I have flown a great number of different kites since then. I remember kiting without a QR, I also remember never using a donkey dick, avoiding gusty conditions like the plague, and being scared of on-shore winds. Another thing I remember is hearing about serious injuries and fatalities far more frequently than we do now. I have some fairly large scars from not being able to release a kite, so do many people who were kiting early on. It was a different sport then. Simply put, QR's have instilled a sense of complacency in kiters, which is fine, as long as they work every time, but a non-reliable QR is far, far, far worse than no QR.

john a wrote:
and I´ve survived even with some crashed bones hehe, but seriously that is just a lame statement.

I'm surprised you don't agree with me about the importance of reliable safety systems if you have had some "crashed bones". Kite companies have, by and large, really stepped up their game from the early days. I think this is awesome, but at the same time, it makes poorly working releases in modern kites all the more unacceptable. If company can't design and test their own working QR, they can license it from one of the great number of other companies that have excellent QRs. A couple of injuries and a number of really scary situations have made me really appreciate working safety systems and depowerable kites. I'm glad you survived all of your kiting accidents. Unfortunately, some people don't survive. Looking at the most recent posting on this forum of a fatality viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2380364&start=10 , there is some indication that the QR failed to release (An F-one bar. There were other contributing factors as well, but this can't be ignored). Publicly stating when a release doesn't work is not bashing a company, it is being a responsible member of the kiting community.

john a wrote:
So if anybody dies from kiting, then it´s the manufacturers fault? Yeah right :lol:

Nope, only when the accident is due to faulty equipment. A quick release that doesn't work because it was exposed to sand is absolutely not acceptable, it indicates a company releasing something to the market that either A.) they have not tested or B.) they have tested and know it doesn't work as advertised. I can't sue Toyota because my engine died sooner than I expected, but I absolutely can sue them if properly maintained brakes stick and it leads to an accident.The vast majority of kiting injuries are due to stupid kiters, but sometimes it is due to faulty equipment, and yes, I think the manufacturers are absolutely responsible for those small subset of kiting injuries.

john a wrote:
Sorry you just don´t get it... the chickenloop works fine. Don´t go around talking bullshit if you dont know the gear.

I do get it. I have used two Best bars, and both had garbage QRs. This stopped being acceptable in about 2007. Reliable QRs became widely available sometime around 2005 or 2006. I'm not down on Best, I have two of their kites, one of which is awesome, the other is pretty good, but the original poster asked about the reliability of his QR, and I told him what I could. My advice was to test it because I had a different Best bar that didn't work. This is good advice. It appears that Best has moved to a different style of QR, presumably because they know that the old one was garbage. As I stated before, I haven't used every QR on the market, no where near it, but of the modern QRs I've used (past 3 or 4 years), only the Best bars that I have used (2010?) are really terrible. The OP's bar is one generation older than mine. Maybe it works flawlessly, but mine sure doesn't.

john a wrote:
The double depowerline gives less depower than the redline, that´s were the big issue is.

Yes, I agree that a QR that only releases most of the way is not ideal, and I think bars should have the option of a single line release, but it it is no where near as dangerous as a QR that doesn't release. In effect, kiting with a bar that releases to two front lines is riding suicide, which comes with some draw backs, but a kite that releases most of its power is usually ok, and when it isn't there is the secondary quick release (as long as the first one works). I usually ride suicide, I've never had any real problems with it. There is a huge difference between riding suicide (and having the ability to release your kite entirely if something goes wrong) and riding without the ability to release the kite from your harness.

john a wrote:
On this model they had QR-handles on steering lines and lets you fly out the kite on one line, the year after on the front lines as well. The second one was the best bar ever to selfland even in sick stormy conditions in the mountains on hard ice.
Sure newer bars are easier to put back together in the water, but the release works.


There are some really nice features about my Best bar, but they don't overcome the fact that the QR doesn't work. I fly my Best kites on my flexifoil bar for this reason. You are talking about something entirely unrelated. The handles on the side of the bar, while great, are not primary quick releases. If you are being dragged by a kite and can not release from your harness, those will do absolutely nothing but put your kite into a death spin. Oh-shit handles should only be used when you are no longer hooked in. Some people use both at once for landing, and while I have't ever tried it, my understanding is that this should only be done in light wind.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:10 am 
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That QR will not work if you din't rinse the salt off of it after every use.
So use it and enjoy but remember to rinse with fresh water.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:25 pm 
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yes it is 2007.

you can easily make this a front line safety by putting a ring at the end of a powerline trough the swivel and use a longer leash.
pain in the ass with rotation but it flags out perfectly.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Lots of info here some of it good, some of it bad.

The bar you have is the 07 BEST Bar and it uses a loop and pin release. They are two ways to reassemble this loop/pin assembly, one will give you a nice low pressure release the other will be more variable depending on the line load. You need to make sure that the pin is fitted over the grey rope loop, not through the ring from beneath the grey rope loop.

Of course better quick release exist now. The Pro-Cuff+ QR on the current RP-Bar has been Afnor tested and shown to have the lowest release pressure of all the Qr that were tested with it. It's a simple one handed push to release set-up, with no pins, pivots, needle or any of that hand slashing crap you still see on some other bars. And the component parts are available as spares. This should last you forever.

If you want something a little less expensive the previous version still offers fine functionality and ease of use. You need both parts and they will fit to your current bar with a bit of knot tying.

http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/RP-Bar- ... n-Loop-Kit
http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/Perform ... cement-Kit

If you have any questions, just ask.


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 Post subject: Re: Best 2009/2010 bar . Is the safety system ok?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:17 pm 
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@tmcfarla: I´m talking about the 08 front line QR - that was a the best solution ever in stroms. But you have the bar so you should know what I´m talking about?
I hear you say you have had trouble, but I have used this system for about 200 sessions a year since 2010 now and it works and never any trouble. Maybe flushing your bar once in a while would help you ;) I also have sooo many friends that uses the same system and no problem... You prefer the North bar, good for you... but others actually prefer other bars ;) And since I know Best very well I just find it hard to believe you can´t pull it, would love to look at that cuff myself, sure its not some of the harder plastic parts on the inside of the your cuff that have bin broken and help out the jam? Btw I still prefer last years cuff from Best, best system ever in my opinion. The 10 cuff was made of a mix between softer rubber and harder plastic, this could be worn by time, the one last year was all hard plastic, and can´t get worn in that way. Try changing to that cuff I´m positive you will be happy. Fit´s on the 10 bar as well ;) If you jam that one h### I´d buy you a new bar myself hehe ;)
Quote:
Even after I've cleaned it, I've noticed some variability in difficulty of releasing, as little as about 10 pounds of force, as much as about 20. With some sand in it, that goes way up (maybe 50 or 60 pounds, but that is just a guess).

So you can still release? Try measure it then please ;) Seemed like you couldn´t and that this thing would kill you if you looked at it ;) hehe
Yes I have broken arms, hips, elbow in several of pieces, and that was way way back and on a early wipika. But never any problem with Best though and bin riding them since the Yarga (along others as well).
Not gonna bothering with argue with all of your statement but lets just say we totally disagree...

Btw it is also possible to convert this one in to a signle line safety with a single depowerline, and a saftyline trough the spare hole and to the one ring in a front line...

When it comes to the release ability of the 07 bar, yes I´ll agree that a push system is easier than a pull system.

Quote:
The QR handle doesn't have a great grip on it, it is simply a bad design that wasn't properly tested before being released.

Matter of taste, matter of taste.. And I happen to find Jordi a great designer! More than enought grip for me at least. How much do you need? Stuff to make grip don´t feel as nice in my hand with the depowerline between the fingers. i don´t like the North system with that "pin" part that lockes the loop. The cornered cuff also annoys me, so a matter of taste...

Finally to utter that they don´t test the gear or release thing they thought didn´t work is not very serious, and way over the line to be brand bashing!!! :nono: :nono: :nono:


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