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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:30 pm 
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This sounds pretty normal to me, in the conditions I ride in you can't just set your edge and ride upwind forever. Every piece of chop you hit slows you down and you either need to work your kite, or do what I do and just let off your edge for a second or two.

It's not really a big deal, just keep riding and you'll get the feel for how much speed you need at various angles. It's not even really like you need to know "what angle to ride at" or something, every time you ride you'll have a slightly different amount of power, slightly different current, slightly different amount of chop, etc etc... you just need the muscle memory and experience built up to know how hard to dig your edge in under which conditions.

Just keep riding


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:26 pm 
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In illustrating excercise:

try to bodydrag with an experienced surfer observing. A typical bodydragging mistake is to be way to aggressive upwind loosing speed in the kite.

You don't see it youself, but the observer can replicate the attempt by showing how the body works like an anchor. But aligning the body speed is gained, the kite pulls and you go upwind quickly.

It is the same principle with the board. You are choking the kite by being too aggressive as others have pointed out. Sometimes you have to go downwind to gain speed and apparent wind, then you can slowly edge upwind.

There are many other variables in light wind - keeping the board more flat, keeping the body more straight.
If the kite is powered up in light wind it will stall, so find the balance with just the right power - and it changes all the time when sining the kite, needing power power for steeing, less for flying.
Going too fast is the opposite mistake of edging too hard - going fast moves the kite deeper in the window, pulling less upwind. The key is to go slow, but not too slow.
Then there is the height of the kite in sky. To low and the board drags and you might put the kite in a dead zone with no wind. Too high and you are not pulling upwind.
Turning the kite too agressively up and down looses power in each turn, slow long nearly horizontal kitemovements are typically more efficient.
Takes time to learn, and depends on wind conditions.

There is also the art of being able to edge hard enough in the first place - i.e. learn the proper stance hips forward, etc., but that doesn't seem to be the problem here.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Quote:
gain speed and apparent wind



More speed = more apparent wind, but more apparent wind can have a negative effect on upwind ability as it will move the wind window the opposite way to the direction you are travelling i.e the edge of the wind window moves more down wind therefore reducing upwind ability as teh kite sits more in front of you.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:30 pm 
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Metaphor_ wrote:
Hi guys, looking for some advice.

It was easier on the instructor's equipment to stay upwind and get a solid ride. That board was bigger, though the dealer told me I should be able to ride a 142cm fine.


LF Drive 142cm long is only 41.5cm wide......and that is what hurts when the wind backs down
The instructor's board was surely "wider"....which is the most important part of the equation
10m2 of kite with 41.5 cm...do not expect any upwind action unless the wind remains above13kn
At 75kg and having owned TT's that size ...i know it is the gear combo...not so much your skills
In lulls below 13kn you just will go nowhere upwind with that set-up
With summertime upon us and the heat.... bigger kites 14/15/16/17 ++ & wider boards........
...make a huge difference.....metaphorically speaking

Have fun :D


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:45 am 
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JGTR wrote:
Quote:
gain speed and apparent wind



More speed = more apparent wind, but more apparent wind can have a negative effect on upwind ability as it will move the wind window the opposite way to the direction you are travelling i.e the edge of the wind window moves more down wind therefore reducing upwind ability as teh kite sits more in front of you.


Yes, as I write later, the key is to go slow, but not too slow, and you still need to go downwind occasionally to gain acceptable speed.

But I came to think - there are actually two dynamics at play here - perhaps someone can fill in on this:

When you make resistance against a kite, especially a C kite, it tends to move more to the edge of the window. And when going slow the apparent wind window becomes more aligned the real wind window. Both of these factors suggest to go slow, but of course not so slow that you loose the pull from apparent wind or loose planning.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:36 am 
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I haven't read all the replays on this thread but the guys telling you to slow down are nuts that's the worst advice.

by your description there are 2 things potentially going wrong.

1) your carving too hard upwind, going TOO SLOW and you push the kite to the edge of the window and you stall and sink.

2) your underpowered and not generating enough power out of the kite. you are going TOO SLOW and too far upwind for the power in the kite.

The answer is bear off down wind slightly and build speed then carve upwind till you find the point when you start to slow. the magic speed and angle for upwind just before you start slowing significantly.

If your underpowered keep signing the kite until you have good speed and reasonable upwind angle. You may need to keep signing it for the whole session.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Quote:
I haven't read all the replays on this thread but the guys telling you to slow down are nuts that's the worst advice


So you are saying that apparent wind plays no part in your ability to get upwind?


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:05 am 
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JGTR wrote:
Quote:
I haven't read all the replays on this thread but the guys telling you to slow down are nuts that's the worst advice


So you are saying that apparent wind plays no part in your ability to get upwind?


no the opposite. not enough speed means not enough aparent wind and therefore poor upwind performance. ..... unless your well powered then you can churn upwind slowly.


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:39 am 
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^^^ … in any case:
the slower you will go the more time it will take to arrive to the same location. So too slow is bad (& can make you sink)

however the faster you go the less up-wind angle ability you will have as the apparent wind direction will change to the worst. So too fast is bad

there is somewhere a nice equilibrium in the middle that will maximize speed + up-wind angle, think the name in English is velocity make good (VMG) ?


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 Post subject: Re: Getting bogged down riding upwind; any tips?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:08 am 
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The problem with velocity made good is that you loose ground whenever you turn, so you should maximize upwind on each tag, unless they are very long. It is btw tempting to make long tags in light wind, also because the wind is often better further out, but it is not good to have the wind drop entirely too far out in the ocean.

As to fast vs slow, I think everyone is saying the same thing. There is a balance to be found, and it is far from the only factor involved.


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