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 Post subject: Custom bar
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Hi everybody!!!!

I'm an happy owner of two best gp V2,that I absolutley love and after two years of use and abuse I cannot still find a new model that I would like to buy for change ( my riding style is mainly unhooked freestyle with straps ). BUT for how much I love the performances of these kites I literally hate the bar: I can't remember how many times I had to trim the lines because they streched, but the worst thing is that the 5th line is not fixed so when you depower the kite it goes slack ( I have other problems with the CL and with the depower straps but that's not the POINT ).

If I want to find a positive side out of this experience is that I learned some stuff: during my "experiment" to give a solution to these problems I discovered how much the tension of the 5th line can affect the flying features of a kite, and like this also how much the lenght of the Y plays an huge role. At the end changing the bar is like changing the kite. I know I discovered the "hot water", but again that's not the POINT.

The POINT is that I started to search for bars of other brands that can be compatible with my kites and with my needs and at the end I realize that MY PERFECT bar doesn't exist:is a mix of different parts.

My project is not complete, but maybe someone of you can help me giving me some ideas ( I have already a fews ): someone of you use a "custom bar"?Wich lenght of the lines for wake style do u prefer and why ( I know it also depends from the type of kite but... )?wich lenght of the Y do u prefer?which parts do u want absolutley to have on yours bar?

:jump: have fun and ride hard :bye:


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:15 am 
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
Hi Alex.
I mod / rebuild my bars but your questions are pretty specific. I would try to cast a wider net. Few people do this and I bet fewer do 5 lines and even fewer are specific to wake style. Happy to share some experience but I'm a 4 line free rider.
Cheers
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:32 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:
Hi Alex.
I mod / rebuild my bars but your questions are pretty specific. I would try to cast a wider net. Few people do this and I bet fewer do 5 lines and even fewer are specific to wake style. Happy to share some experience but I'm a 4 line free rider.
Cheers
Pete


I know that my questions are pretty specific, maybe a kite designer that read the forum can help me ( or simply experience and test ). But coming back to assemble a kite bar to meet my preference I soon realize that before think to the lines lenght I have to find the right lines.
I'm starting to understand tha Dyneema is a patent and many producers do this but in different ways, I mean that at the end the most used are SK75 with 12 strands for kiteboarding, but after this the kind of process used to build lines ( eg: impregnated with polyhuretan coating or special heat tratment ) makes a big difference...am I right or wrong?

Also for the bar, it's almost impossible to find producers that sell bars only. The only solutions it seems to buy the bar you want and then change the rest ( lines depower ecc ).


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:54 pm 
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it dont matter if there is a coating, like some kind of polyurethane coating. I have used lines with and without both are fine they splice the same and with or without heat treatment it's all ok. 12 strand of some kind of Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene that's all you need.

I have built several custom bars but I always build 4 line bars. For a 5 line bar with a high Y and tension on the bar there is only one Y height that works right with your kite. You should be using that particular length of Y. Some kites that fly on 5 lines are not super particular about the Y height others are, that's why I can't really comment more about your particular situation. You need to ask someone who also has that exact model the best gp and just figure out who has used which bars with it.

You are right now asking about a "custom bar" for the best gp and I think it's safe to you are the only one on the forum who is doing this exact thing.

Try asking the question again but this time ask this question:

"Which non-Best bars have you used with the Best GP?"

Figure out what people are flying with the Best GP, see if they are flying a north trust or a naish shift control, it will give you an idea about how far you can tweak your custom setup and still make the kite fly good.


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:48 pm 
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edt wrote:
it dont matter if there is a coating, like some kind of polyurethane coating. I have used lines with and without both are fine they splice the same and with or without heat treatment it's all ok. 12 strand of some kind of Ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene that's all you need.

I have built several custom bars but I always build 4 line bars. For a 5 line bar with a high Y and tension on the bar there is only one Y height that works right with your kite. You should be using that particular length of Y. Some kites that fly on 5 lines are not super particular about the Y height others are, that's why I can't really comment more about your particular situation. You need to ask someone who also has that exact model the best gp and just figure out who has used which bars with it.

You are right now asking about a "custom bar" for the best gp and I think it's safe to you are the only one on the forum who is doing this exact thing.

Try asking the question again but this time ask this question:

"Which non-Best bars have you used with the Best GP?"

Figure out what people are flying with the Best GP, see if they are flying a north trust or a naish shift control, it will give you an idea about how far you can tweak your custom setup and still make the kite fly good.


I'm absolutley agree with you!

In two words here is "my story":

I have also a 7m Vegas 2014 on my quiver that I use with a north bar 5th line 2014 22 meters lines and I've also tried to use my GPs with this bar: the kite simply doesn't fly well and I'm not talking about back stall or turning speed, there are some flutters on the tips also during navigation ( not to mention that bar pressure became too heavy for me and I have to much delay after steering inputs ). My conclusion is that this bar is not the right one for GPs probably due to the Y lenght.

Now I don't want to modify North bar because if one day I'll want to sell the Vegas to sell it complete I think will be easier, and also beacuse at the end I could have a bar that works for GP but not for Vegas ( never had the possibility to try the Vegas with the Best bar ). So my idea is to build a custom bar that gives me also the possibility to change Y and lines lenght ( starting from the actual measures of the Best bar ) till I can find the right setup for my kites.

I note some thing:
1) Pulido uses her GPs without the Y.
2) You can use the 2015 vegas with standard 5th line ( higher Y ) or wakestyle bar ( lower Y )
3) I know for sure that some Pros tested 2014 Vegas with lower Y and they prefered this setup
4) When I have tried to use a kite with a lower Y with a bar with higher Y I had problems
All those things make me think that You can switch from a Higher to a lower Y without problems but it's not true the opposite ( talking about flying characteristics ). but I can be wrong and Now I dont have enough time to do some other test.

At the end to return on topic: so what really makes difference in Dyneema lines? I'm sure there is difference cause I can feel it flying same kite with same bar ( lines and Y lenght ) but with different kind of lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:29 am 
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Laughingman wrote:
Hi Alex.
I mod / rebuild my bars but your questions are pretty specific. I would try to cast a wider net. Few people do this and I bet fewer do 5 lines and even fewer are specific to wake style.

I'd love to know from where you come from with these figures.
Just few examples: all the fuel riders who fly with a 5th line mod their bars, Hadlow itself modified the north bar to use his 6th lines mode. Some Ozone C4 riders get rid of the bridles to set a 5th lines bar.

Back on topic.
line lenght: with my actual set 7-9-11 I'm using 22-24 mt long lines. When I had the 5 I used 20mt long lines.

What I want on my bar is
1) thin diameter bar (flexifoil one is thin)
2) low V. So if I tangle I can untangle without come back on shore.
3) Oh Shit rings. Maybe you're never going to use them but in case of strong wind when you know that even relasing with the 5th the kite is still going to fly, well you'll appreciate have them.
4) good lines. I like Ozone, Slingshot and I never had problem with Airush or Flexifoil one.
5) Large CL with PU coated depower line. I've a 2014 Ozone one
6) above the bar depower trim. It's easy to replace and I find it more precise than the pull pull one.

About 5th line modification, on my Hadlow pro which had the same problem you have with the GP I did this:
I added a 3mt long 3mm diameter line from the V with a spliced hole in both the end. On the hole far away from the V I let pass my 5th line with a metallic ring larger than the hole so it is fixed with the V and my 5th doesn't slack when I depower.
Then you need another line from the ring to the CL for the safety.

I hope this is clear enough otherwise I can post some pics. But I can take really long time :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:13 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:35 pm
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
baobob wrote:
Laughingman wrote:
Hi Alex.
I mod / rebuild my bars but your questions are pretty specific. I would try to cast a wider net. Few people do this and I bet fewer do 5 lines and even fewer are specific to wake style.

I'd love to know from where you come from with these figures.
Just few examples: all the fuel riders who fly with a 5th line mod their bars, Hadlow itself modified the north bar to use his 6th lines mode. Some Ozone C4 riders get rid of the bridles to set a 5th lines bar.

Back on topic.
line lenght: with my actual set 7-9-11 I'm using 22-24 mt long lines. When I had the 5 I used 20mt long lines.

What I want on my bar is
1) thin diameter bar (flexifoil one is thin)
2) low V. So if I tangle I can untangle without come back on shore.
3) Oh Shit rings. Maybe you're never going to use them but in case of strong wind when you know that even relasing with the 5th the kite is still going to fly, well you'll appreciate have them.
4) good lines. I like Ozone, Slingshot and I never had problem with Airush or Flexifoil one.
5) Large CL with PU coated depower line. I've a 2014 Ozone one
6) above the bar depower trim. It's easy to replace and I find it more precise than the pull pull one.

About 5th line modification, on my Hadlow pro which had the same problem you have with the GP I did this:
I added a 3mt long 3mm diameter line from the V with a spliced hole in both the end. On the hole far away from the V I let pass my 5th line with a metallic ring larger than the hole so it is fixed with the V and my 5th doesn't slack when I depower.
Then you need another line from the ring to the CL for the safety.

I hope this is clear enough otherwise I can post some pics. But I can take really long time :lol:


Dude it was just an observation based on my experience. Nothing more.


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:41 pm
Posts: 54
baobob wrote:
Laughingman wrote:
Hi Alex.
I mod / rebuild my bars but your questions are pretty specific. I would try to cast a wider net. Few people do this and I bet fewer do 5 lines and even fewer are specific to wake style.

I'd love to know from where you come from with these figures.
Just few examples: all the fuel riders who fly with a 5th line mod their bars, Hadlow itself modified the north bar to use his 6th lines mode. Some Ozone C4 riders get rid of the bridles to set a 5th lines bar.

Back on topic.
line lenght: with my actual set 7-9-11 I'm using 22-24 mt long lines. When I had the 5 I used 20mt long lines.

What I want on my bar is
1) thin diameter bar (flexifoil one is thin)
2) low V. So if I tangle I can untangle without come back on shore.
3) Oh Shit rings. Maybe you're never going to use them but in case of strong wind when you know that even relasing with the 5th the kite is still going to fly, well you'll appreciate have them.
4) good lines. I like Ozone, Slingshot and I never had problem with Airush or Flexifoil one.
5) Large CL with PU coated depower line. I've a 2014 Ozone one
6) above the bar depower trim. It's easy to replace and I find it more precise than the pull pull one.

About 5th line modification, on my Hadlow pro which had the same problem you have with the GP I did this:
I added a 3mt long 3mm diameter line from the V with a spliced hole in both the end. On the hole far away from the V I let pass my 5th line with a metallic ring larger than the hole so it is fixed with the V and my 5th doesn't slack when I depower.
Then you need another line from the ring to the CL for the safety.

I hope this is clear enough otherwise I can post some pics. But I can take really long time :lol:


More or less is what I'm seraching for ( except for oh shit handles cause I think the best solution if you have problems in really strong wind is realising everything ). For the rest I was also thinking to buy an ozone CL but still don't know wich thin bar to use. For the work you have done on your fifht if you can post a photo, cause I cannot figured out what you wrote. Tx


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 Post subject: Re: Custom bar
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
For the lines you might be noticing the difference between thick and thin lines. thin lines are very slightly more springy so the kite might feel slower (I can't tell the difference) also thicker lines have more friction so the kite might sit slighly deeper in the wind window. again I can't feel this as it's only a matter of inches but maybe you can. I think more important is line length. even a single meter will make a difference especially as it alters the ratio of your y.

I tend to agree it usually is not bad for a kite to lower the y but it's not a rule you still have to test it out.


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