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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:50 am 
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Oh this old chestnut again....lol.

If you say foils are better than leis then 99 percent of kiters must have been fooled.

Maybe the earth is flat after all! Lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Wow PMU... reading your posts it seems that you grab every opportunity to channel your hatred towards RAMs. If you hate RAMs so much simply ignoring them is a lot easier than starting a Crusade.
I'm not gonna argue with you about performance, after reading your post I realised that you're an expert of the topic, but please explain me why is that in sub 10kn conditions me and my "weirdo" mates are riding upwind and the LEI owners are waiting for more wind. Of course excluding featherweight LEI guys. I experienced this in many occasions at my home spot or abroad.

I must admit RAMs are not the easiest choice especially for beginners and have a number of drawbacks but IMHO your post was far from being objective.


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Location: Imperial Beach, CA
Because the guys on the LEI were using the wrong board. The board choice(and fins) has more significance than the kite IMO. And I'm not referring to just raceboards, although they are an option. At 200 lbs with my 17m LEI and hybrid surfboard, I can still have fun in the lightest of winds playing in the waves while the smaller guy on his Flysurfer (19m or 21M?) is mowing the lawn on his TT. It all comes down to the Fun Factor. Why spend $3000 when you can save your bucks and just find the right board/fin setup to complement your existing quiver. Not trying to bash the Foil's, just giving my humble opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Westozzy wrote:
Oh this old chestnut again....lol.

If you say foils are better than leis then 99 percent of kiters must have been fooled.



Reworded slightly: If you say LEIs are better than foils then 99 percent of snow kiters must have been fooled.

LEI vs. Foil, meh... I think the only real reason why you see more LEIs on the water than foils is because people are afraid the foils won't relaunch. It's a convenience thing really (i.e. the convenience of relaunch). I know they relaunch just fine because I've been using them for years. Others who haven't are skeptical, and I can see why. Similarly, the reason why foils outnumber LEIs (by a wide margin) in the snow kite category is because of convenience - pumping on the snow is not at all convenient on a good pow day, not to mention a bursted bladder or broken valve in the cold...

Me personally, I like foils because I find them to be a little smoother and offer more hang time. If I wanted a grunty feel with more pop then I would probably look to an LEI. Whatever floats your boat...

It's also very strange to me that, at least where I live, in the winter months all the LEI vs. foil banter completely disappears and then as soon as the spring arrives it all comes up again. I guess people just need to focus their attention on whose gear is best because that must be what makes a superior kiter. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:25 am 
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Snow kiters? What has that got to do with the price of eggs? KITE - SURFING....not snow boarding...

Because they won't relaunch hey that's the only reason?

For the average punter who is not unhooking and not smacking their kite in the drink which comes with the territory when learning wake style, I would say I could always get my foils up out of the water way quicker than a LEI if you know what you are doing. But yes if left there for a while you can get in trouble.

Nope I changed from foils to LEIs purely on performance alone and trust me I held off for a long time after they died a quick death over here.

In light winds they have their place, but board selection is crucial. You have to remember the pros push the sport and the hence the wings capability to its very maximum, and they ride leis, except a few riders who have my respect IMO. You can bang on about marketing conspiracy and all that jazz but in the end the market will tell you what is best and what isn't and the numbers don't lie.

Oh except if you are snowboarding? wTF?

There is no doubt though I really miss the ease of setting up quickly, no pumping, and I missed the apparent wind build up until I found the edge. :D

I'm seriously intrigued with fly surfers chronic though, demo arriving over here end of the month. I will be testing and reviewing the shit out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:25 am 
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Westozzy wrote:
Snow kiters? What has that got to do with the price of eggs? KITE - SURFING....not snow boarding...

Because they won't relaunch hey that's the only reason?

For the average punter who is not unhooking and not smacking their kite in the drink which comes with the territory when learning wake style, I would say I could always get my foils up out of the water way quicker than a LEI if you know what you are doing. But yes if left there for a while you can get in trouble.

Nope I changed from foils to LEIs purely on performance alone and trust me I held off for a long time after they died a quick death over here.

In light winds they have their place, but board selection is crucial. You have to remember the pros push the sport and the hence the wings capability to its very maximum, and they ride leis, except a few riders who have my respect IMO. You can bang on about marketing conspiracy and all that jazz but in the end the market will tell you what is best and what isn't and the numbers don't lie.

Oh except if you are snowboarding? wTF?

There is no doubt though I really miss the ease of setting up quickly, no pumping, and I missed the apparent wind build up until I found the edge. :D

I'm seriously intrigued with fly surfers chronic though, demo arriving over here end of the month. I will be testing and reviewing the shit out of it.


Dude, no need to take a contrary opinion personally. Snow kiting and kitesurfing - same sport, different medium. I do both equally. I don't think it's hard to understand the point. The point is you're flying a kite for both and performance demands in the air are not materially different. On the water, LEIs are preferred. On the snow, foils are preferred. Why? Well if the performance demands are the same, it must have something to do with the medium (water vs. snow). Otherwise, if LEIs were really so much better you would still see a bias toward them on the snow, as well as on the water. So, in my humble observations, the performance differences are overstated.

Agreed on the Cronix - I'm looking forward to testing one soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:06 am 
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Life_Is_Awesome wrote:
Westozzy wrote:
Snow kiters? What has that got to do with the price of eggs? KITE - SURFING....not snow boarding...

Because they won't relaunch hey that's the only reason?

For the average punter who is not unhooking and not smacking their kite in the drink which comes with the territory when learning wake style, I would say I could always get my foils up out of the water way quicker than a LEI if you know what you are doing. But yes if left there for a while you can get in trouble.

Nope I changed from foils to LEIs purely on performance alone and trust me I held off for a long time after they died a quick death over here.

In light winds they have their place, but board selection is crucial. You have to remember the pros push the sport and the hence the wings capability to its very maximum, and they ride leis, except a few riders who have my respect IMO. You can bang on about marketing conspiracy and all that jazz but in the end the market will tell you what is best and what isn't and the numbers don't lie.

Oh except if you are snowboarding? wTF?

There is no doubt though I really miss the ease of setting up quickly, no pumping, and I missed the apparent wind build up until I found the edge. :D

I'm seriously intrigued with fly surfers chronic though, demo arriving over here end of the month. I will be testing and reviewing the shit out of it.


Dude, no need to take a contrary opinion personally. Snow kiting and kitesurfing - same sport, different medium. I do both equally. I don't think it's hard to understand the point. The point is you're flying a kite for both and performance demands in the air are not materially different. On the water, LEIs are preferred. On the snow, foils are preferred. Why? Well if the performance demands are the same, it must have something to do with the medium (water vs. snow). Otherwise, if LEIs were really so much better you would still see a bias toward them on the snow, as well as on the water. So, in my humble observations, the performance differences are overstated.

Agreed on the Cronix - I'm looking forward to testing one soon.


Actually, ram airs are inferior to inflatables on snow/land, as well as on water. Check this link for the reasons and for corroborating evidence: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2374666


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:11 am 
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Are there any LEI Paragliders?


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:40 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:28 pm
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Dave_5280 wrote:
Are there any LEI Paragliders?


Duuh, no cuz you don't want a bladder leak at 500' AGL.


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 Post subject: Re: Foils Vs. Inflatables
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:47 am 
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Life_Is_Awesome wrote:
Westozzy wrote:
Snow kiters? What has that got to do with the price of eggs? KITE - SURFING....not snow boarding...

Because they won't relaunch hey that's the only reason?

For the average punter who is not unhooking and not smacking their kite in the drink which comes with the territory when learning wake style, I would say I could always get my foils up out of the water way quicker than a LEI if you know what you are doing. But yes if left there for a while you can get in trouble.

Nope I changed from foils to LEIs purely on performance alone and trust me I held off for a long time after they died a quick death over here.

In light winds they have their place, but board selection is crucial. You have to remember the pros push the sport and the hence the wings capability to its very maximum, and they ride leis, except a few riders who have my respect IMO. You can bang on about marketing conspiracy and all that jazz but in the end the market will tell you what is best and what isn't and the numbers don't lie.

Oh except if you are snowboarding? wTF?

There is no doubt though I really miss the ease of setting up quickly, no pumping, and I missed the apparent wind build up until I found the edge. :D

I'm seriously intrigued with fly surfers chronic though, demo arriving over here end of the month. I will be testing and reviewing the shit out of it.


Dude, no need to take a contrary opinion personally. Snow kiting and kitesurfing - same sport, different medium. I do both equally. I don't think it's hard to understand the point. The point is you're flying a kite for both and performance demands in the air are not materially different. On the water, LEIs are preferred. On the snow, foils are preferred. Why? Well if the performance demands are the same, it must have something to do with the medium (water vs. snow). Otherwise, if LEIs were really so much better you would still see a bias toward them on the snow, as well as on the water. So, in my humble observations, the performance differences are overstated.

Agreed on the Cronix - I'm looking forward to testing one soon.





the medium, fair enough I can't comment on that as never been fortunate enough to snow board. Just kited on water since 2000. So in water then, LEIs are most definelty superior to me anyhow. Again it depends on what you are into. Jesus those wing tip folds gave me the absolute shits. But Christ did I go big on the pyscho.

Bring on the chronic, what an interesting demo day that will be!


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