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 Post subject: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Been seeing that term for years to refer to kite performance, but have never seen it properly defined. Grunt per the dictionary is a sound or a type of military person (in USA). Can also be a BM (see urban dictionary).

Low: is this when the kite is "low" in the wind window? or low wind? or when the kite is moving slow (low range of moving speed)?

End: end of what? end of the power swoop? end of the range of wind?

Grunt: does the kite make a sound? Does the kiter make a grunting sound when he/she gets "low end"? Did this word come from British or Australian English where it means something entirely different that in US English?

Is there a high end grunt? A low start grunt?

Can I say "that kite has great low end, but I wouldn't grunt about it"?


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Grunt is the noise a person or animal makes when putting out a huge effort with little motion due to the pressure being built up in the abdominal region. Moving a heavy stone slowly vs flicking a lighter stone with acceleration. Same power, different kind of effort.

This is figuratively used as a property of machinery. For vehicles this refers to power generated at low revolutions.

For a kite it means the kite pulls without having to move fast in turns or with apparent wind, and is also used to refer to a kite that provides more power than average for the given size such as Delta type kites (but that may come at a cost such as making it feel larger than it is). Often grunt results in a downwind pull, so all that power does not always work to your benefit. Grunt is more useful for heavier persons that can resist the pull with a larger board and translate the pull into upwind traction or load the lines for a jump.

As to low end:
when the wind picks up, one is interested in how the kite can generate less power and therefore the grunt property is not very relevant here. Therefore, grunt is mainly a property of interest in the lower end of the wind range. So a kite that generates more static power than average for a given size is said to have low end grunt, although you might as well just say it has grunt. You can pull in on the bar at the beach to get an indicator of this. However, other kites may generate as much power while feeling dead when pullin g in on the bar. They do not have low end grunt, but may be very efficient in light wind anyway. Some may then say such kites are grunty because of the power generation ability at speed - so the term is not very clear.


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:28 pm 
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i agree, it's not a term you're likely to find in a kitesurfing glossary.

my definition would suggest that 'low end grunt' is the kites ability to generate lift,pull,or line tension in relatively low wind speeds.
generally this would happen in static conditions. i.e. without the benefit of having much apparant wind due to board speed.

sounds pretty good, but usually translates to a kite that has a high lift coeffiecient and high drag coefficient.
Good Lift/Drag performance generally happens at low angles of attack (AOA) for any wing.
Drag coefficient may be low, but the lift coefficient is also low at small angles.
if there is enough wind to generate sufficient lift at low AOA, life is good.
at the "low end" you may need to generate "grunt" (pull) by increasing AOA ( pull on the bar).
this also increases drag as well as lift.
Both produce line tension. the net result is poor upwind performance.
the alternative is to generate lift with increased apparant wind. ( moving the kite or increased board speed)

lots of lift, at low angle of attack, in low wind would be the best flavor of 'low end grunt'
opinions vary.

-bill


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:54 pm 
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well in general if you cant figure it out from your academic approach of finding out what grunt and low and end mean, you might not get a lot of things!

Pretty simply its a descriptive term for a kite that can generate a lot of pull for its size in the lower end of its wind range. Think torque vs horse power.

Grunt is like slippery, or fluid, or crispy, or explosive, or dynamic, or gust eating, or stable or any other term used to describe kites that may stray from what you find in the oxford dictionary, yet their definition is pretty indicative of what the intended meaning is in the context of kites.


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:19 pm 
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No wind at your spot or what? :)


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:20 pm 
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neither wind nor grunt in my kite


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Anyone who has kited for an extended period in South Florida knows exactly what low end grunt means. Otherwise they might resort to something else like bowling.


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:48 am 
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Blabla marketing mumbo jumbo :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:50 am 
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My understanding is it means good traction characteristics at lower wind speeds. Some kites have it while others do not do so well at the low end. Not all kites are intended to perform optimally in lighter winds either for that matter favoring other attributes instead. It is far from marketing fiction particularly for folks who have to deal with frequent lighter winds.


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 Post subject: Re: what is low end grunt?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:24 am 
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Funny I have a different definition of grunt.

I hear a lot of claims that say edges are grunty kites....and given the defintion based on light wind and the need for 'grunt' I can see why..

But my definition of grunt means the type of power delivery a C kite will give you or even a hybrid with some C in it. Or the low aspect delta kites...send it across the window and you get that real punchy whack..i call that grunt.

What you guys are calling grunt I tend to call 'Pull'. Kites like the edge provide power deliver that really 'pulls', you along as it tries to hunt the edge of the window. The power comes on gradual and smooth then pulls hard.

Some kites like say the Dyno and the zephyr provide static 'Pull', where if you pull hard ont he bar and even if you are going slow it will keep pulling you along...whereas with say the edge you have to keep speed in the wing and the board.


Hence I hate kites with grunt....except in my smaller waves kites where i need that instant power spike to get oout and through certain sections...

I'm just giving my definitions, they may be wrong but they work for me.

Pull Vs Grunt..Pull to me explains the feel of the power delivery of high aspect kites versus grunt...for low aspect kites.


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