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Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:14 am
by tautologies
RickI wrote:The kiter is always responsible for his actions, regardless of how clueless he might be.
Sounds like he had some help in making bad choices however going right back to his instructor.
Yup for sure.
This spot is pretty notorious though, and it is one of the spots you develop eyes in your neck to do anything. Well seasoned people avoid this spot.
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:55 am
by Dave_5280
I launched a guy once and he ended up slamming the kite into the beach just missing a female instructor. He didn't look like a beginner. That experience and your story makes me think we need to ask a few questions before we can safely launch someone we don't know. They may need a little more help than a routine launch.
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:28 am
by capitan nemo
I totally agree with Rick.
Kiter is always at blame and in this case the instructor is also in fault.
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:16 am
by Rido
rightguard wrote:Who's to blame... The kiter end of story. You and only you are to blam for your actions. So someone told you... Go for it... Doesn't mean they are to blame.
Now I too went out on my own after only a couple lessons. Was I really ready NO, did I need lots of help from locals YES. All anyone can do is thier best. If you are nice enough to help someone launch, that's a good thing. It's not your responsibility to make sure they are a perfect kiter. Although its also nice to take the time to help someone that wants some advice.
I also believe the only way to learn is threw actions. You can tell someone to let go over and over... Untell something happens to them they won't learn. Hopefully it's not too bad.
I've been helping a friend learn... He took 5-6 lessons. Before every launch I say "first sign of trouble let go and release safty before you are in real trouble" but two seconds later trouble and he hangs on for dear life. Just natural... But no injury. Hopefully he learns to let go this time but we only know the next time something happens.
Agreed. I took 14 hours of lessons. I only launched once out of all those times. My instructor never taught me lessons. I was still scared shitless launching my kite. Some locals helped me and would catch my kite and launch me all the time.
I was so scared of the wind the first day without an instructor.
They made me feel so comfortable with it and I launch fairly easily now. I still run straight for the water but I know how to launch properly.
Be nice to others so they will be nice to you. You can have like 10 mini-instructors if you ask questions and are nice to people. Be sure to return the favor in anyway you can. Let people know their help is appreciated.
Btw I made them guacamole for all the help they gave me. So now they can chill on the beach and eat the guacamole.
I make some bad ass guac too
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:16 am
by g00se
Often you can tell if someone doesn't know what they are doing by the way they handle the kite, bar etc prior to launching (while you hold the kite ready). A couple times I've put the kite back down and had a chat with them when it felt 'wrong'.
Eg: If someone gives you a thumbs up while the kite is still flapping in the wind - you know they probably don't have much of a clue..
I also check the lines, bridles aren't crossed etc - but that's just standard launch assistance etiquette IMO.
But, things still can go bad. A few years ago I launched someone who was at the learning upwind stage. The lines etc were fine, they were in the correct position - I got the thumbs up and released the kite but then they inexplicably cranked on one side of the bar and kitelooped down the beach (just panicked I think).
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:18 pm
by flipper231
Personally I think that the only responsibility of the launching helper is to disobey the thumb up when it comes too early in the process, p,ease read "kite fluttering like mad". And we see that a lot especially in high winds, the pilot is afraid to go upwind and ask to release the kite which inevitably drifts downwind and may fall on the TE for a hot launch rodeo wich i witnessed...so i don't hesitate to say... "Go read the book and come back when you know what to do"... Well I force them to roll up, come close to me for explanations and start the launch all over again. It is too easy to move downwind to get rid of him but that person needs to learn than to be launched
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:02 pm
by vfr
Yes and no, flipper. What if it's two beginners? I remember (before
I was able to go upwind) some guy asked me for a lauch. It didn't seem to me that his kite was in
the right position but he gave me a clear thumbs-up, followed by the inevitable. We tried again,
and again he gave me a clear thumbs up. This time the inevitable was worse and the guy was
really mad at me. I didn't feel like I had done anything wrong but wasn't confident enough to
blame him. In recent years I have many times corrected the kiter's position, pointed out tangled
lines etc but the one incident that sticks in my mind is that one. Luckily it was a good beginner
spot and his kite just went fairly gently into a crowd of other beginners. Still think it was not my
fault.
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:28 pm
by RickI
I think anyone helping someone to launch should checkout a few things before letting the kite go. Some of the points are summarized in this ten year old post, see below. I would add to that list, the kite should "want" to take off or bite into the wind and isn't hesitating. Jerky kite motion and hesitation can indicate crossed lines and/or the kite isn't placed properly in the wind window. This was written in the C kite days. I would add to check for signs of the lack of bridle tangles, wrapped wing tips, etc..
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12349&p=79448
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:36 pm
by edt
no harm no foul, keep on kiting. nobody died, no kites were torn, nobody is at fault. Just my opinion. There's plenty enough real kitemares out there. I think it's ok to find lessons here, like be more careful, but I wouldn't find anyone at fault.
Re: beginner accident ...who is at fault...
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:44 pm
by bnthere
consumer wrote:bnthere wrote:so you launched a newbie without a clear downwind area.
so you would have told/explained to this individual that they should not launch there and that you were unwilling to give them a launch?
not necessarily not launch the person, but interviewing and informing someone is important
people i havent seen kite, especially if they look inexperienced, get not only a line of experience questioning, but also spot advise including hazard locations, downwind takeout options and how to use the spot without troubles.
mistakes on the beach cost location access. (as you mentioned)
you cant control or avoid everything, but it only takes a second to interview a person ... how much experience, where do you ride, are you 100% comfortable handling this kite (thing can kill you you know). ok, then here is the deal ... dont mess around right here, walk it over there keep it low, bdrag out etc.