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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
.
Oldnbroken wrote:
KamiKevin,
You want to have a laugh at some FoNt CraZynEss and some Bolding Abuse?...
...Click on the MalibuKitesurfing website link.
Holy Moses!! :crazy:


I’m sorry to continue the off-topic content, but I don’t understand the hostility regarding EMPHASIS in printed communication.

Communication experts say that less then 20% of VERBAL information is communicated via the actual WORDS used. The other 80%+ is communicated via NON VERBAL signals such as tone, volume, inflection, facial expression and body language. You can see this effect yourself the next time someone asks you a yes or no question by nodding your head while saying “no” or shaking your head while saying “yes”.

Not only are all the foregoing ques missing from printed communications, but many people would prefer to SKIM stuff to get through it as quickly as possible. In these cases, someone may only take the time to read more carefully IF they’ve seen something while skimming which attracted their attention. This effect becomes more important the less attention the writer expects the reader to be paying in the first place.

Although, it is possible to overdo emphasis in print, just like in an obnoxious radio or TV ad, the DIFFERENCE is that you can’t shut off your ears. On the other hand, if you find emphasis in print too visually obnoxious, YOU DON’T HAVE TO READ IT.

In most of my forum posts I take the EXTRA TIME AND EFFORT to add VARIOUS types of emphasis in an attempt to both make it easier to skim AND less subject to MISINTERPRETATION. In fact, I’ve frequently wondered whether a certain amount of the hostility towards emphasis (on the forums) is due to a frustrated desire to DELIBERATELY misinterpret the content in order to promote a different opinion.

It might be noted that I don't use smileys which are ALSO a way to add emphasis to print but usually in a more VAGUE way.

Westozzy:

My post was drifting off topic in response to Kamikuza’s accidental misinterpretation of my posts regarding prioritizing beach usage.

However, the reason why I raised the issue of who has the ROW, is because if waveriders could NOT claim to have the ROW, then 90%+ of their reasons to whine about other kiters would evaporate since THEY would be obligated to AVOID the other kiters rather than vice-a-versa.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Posts: 5628
Location: Denmark
Richard - I like your posts and opinions...

But, I must honestly say, that the use of bold face letters and uppercase letters, is extremely hard and difficult to read - it toughens everything up - just like those who never uses spacings or line shifts - really difficult to read without getting tired, instead of having a joyful experience :o

So maybe some has said that you could/should use more "life" in the writing...

But as I said, it really has the opposite effect - making it really difficult to read relaxed, and you get angry instead (looks like shouting or stating something you WANT to be true no matter what other thinks...)

A bit off topic maybe - but would just say what I observe, and most likely others do the same :naughty:

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:25 pm
Posts: 2466
Location: The Naki
I have to agree. Its too hard to read with all the bolding and italics. My writing is very bad and I know it.

But all that bolding and capitals is like shouting. Its too much and the emphasis is taking off the content.

As for your web site Richard. It is terrible. Way way too hard to read. There is far to much going on in one page. You will be loosing business because of how the web site looks. You should use a bit of KISS for your web site. Keep It Simple Stupid.

PS The above is not a personal attack on you. More some friendly free business advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:03 am
Posts: 78
Flyfish wrote:
I HATE THIS FORUM!
I think this is the demise of our cherished sport.
I've surfed since 1976. 8 years old. I got yelled at by a big 20 year Hawaiian dude when I was TEN! You think a 10 year old is gonna steal a wave from a 200 lbs Hawaiian? Why? He's a DICK.
Surfers are DICKS.
I've windsurfed since I was 22. Biggest relief I ever had. I finally got surf waves away from all the DICKS.
Started Kiting in 2000. Guess what? Still no DICKS!
We all helped each other and were cool to each other. Why? You guessed it my friend. YOU DIDN'T EXIST! You were groveling in the line up yelling at some little 10 year old kid.
Surfers are DICKS and I hate seeing them learning to kite. They're little testosterone rats.


Flyfish,

You do realize that surfers invented windsurfing and every other board sport. I am pretty sure it was mostly surfers that invented kiteboarding along with that genius Corry and his dad on the skis. You may say they were windsurfers but really most of them like you were surfers that found more success with windsurfing. Even if they were strictly windsurfers without surfers there would be no windsurfing. No surfers = no kiteboarding.

So thanks to a bunch of dicks your life has been improved since the age of 22!


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:03 am
Posts: 78
RichardM,

Did we not settle the issue of ROW ON A WAVE 3 years ago in another thread?

Everyone can save a bunch of angry post writing and get a few laughs by reading this thread:


http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2367519


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:29 am
Posts: 52
Rob - this post certainly can also settle this thread!! :thumb:
Quote:
Richard M,

You constantly write in various threads about surfers as if they are a bunch of Neanderthals and as if those who ride waves with kites in the ocean could not possibly learn anything from surfers.

Kiteboarding is a spin-off of what? Windsurfing, wakeboarding, skateboarding, snowboarding, etc. ALL of these board sports were invented by SURFERS that wanted to expand on the feeling they got riding waves. (The all caps and bold type is pretty annoying don't you think?) I can remember skiing as a kid and trying to carve the slope like I was on a wave. Of course in the early 80's skis did not do that. Along came snowboarding. Another problem solved by surfers. Eventually the skiers that hated snowboarders started using shaped skis and saved the skiing industry. Now intermediate skiers can “carve” like snowboarders. Or is it carve like surfers? Surfers got bored waterskiing so they brought their surfboards to ride the wave behind the boat. Oh shit surfers just invented wakeboarding….How do these stoned idiots keep doing it?

Surfing is thousands of years old. I have surfboards in my garage older than the sport of kiteboarding. They are not even close to being collector’s items. They are just boards I liked and never got around to selling.

The "rules" of surfing and wave etiquette have been passed down for generations and are nearly universal around the world. They include having respect for locals when visiting others spots and the communities that have been built around those waves. These are all things you have written against in your many posts on this subject.

These historic unwritten rules include the "retarded pecking order" that is another part of surfing that you despise. It is called having respect for those that came before you and have made the sacrifice needed to become good at what they do and at what you are trying to do. I guess if you happened upon a slick being dominated by Ruben and a bunch of other pros you would just jump right in and cockblock the rotation. Would it not cross your mind that maybe you should find another spot to ride or better yet sit and enjoy the show?

You seem to have a weird fascination with wanting to ride your kiteboard in the ocean like a surfer and yet trash talk surfing and its "rules". It is almost like watching a closeted homophobic politician or televangelist talk against gays. Were you ever yelled at by a surfer in the ocean as a child? Did you fail at learning to surf and then decided to take up bodysurfing? If you even rode a boggie board casually it seems you would have a better understanding of the lineup. You have gone so far as to name your business after one of the most revered surf spots in the world yet you deny the importance of surfing to your business. You could have at least called it Malibu Kiteboarding but no you had to call it Malibu Kitesurfing. Calling Dr. Freud.

Surfing etiquette should apply when kiteboarding in waves 99% of the time. This means the guy riding the wave has ROW. Of course if the guy riding the wave needs to yield to the guy going out to avoid a wreck he should do so. Not a big deal the first time. Maybe the guy going out should buy him a beer. (Are you buying the next round Richard?) If the guy going out gets in the way again maybe he should find another place to ride until he is a better kiteSURFER.

Rob Giroux


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 667
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
Twitch wrote:
Rob - this post certainly can also settle this thread!! :thumb:
Quote:
Richard M,

You constantly write in various threads about surfers as if they are a bunch of Neanderthals and as if those who ride waves with kites in the ocean could not possibly learn anything from surfers.

Kiteboarding is a spin-off ..... these stoned idiots keep doing it?

Surfing is thousands of years .... to selling.

The "rules" of surfing and wave etiquette ..... on this subject.

These historic unwritten rules ....... enjoy the show?

You seem to have a weird fascination .... Calling Dr. Freud.

Surfing etiquette ..... kiteSURFER.

Rob Giroux


Twitch evidently didn’t see my response to robg further down the page at
posting.php?mode=edit&f=1&p=677171 http://www.kiteforum.com/posting.php?mode=edit&f=1&p=677171

robg wrote:
Richard M,

1.. You constantly write in various threads about surfers as if they are a bunch of Neanderthals and as if those who ride waves with kites in the ocean could not possibly learn anything from surfers.

Kiteboarding is a spin-off of what? Windsurfing, wakeboarding, skateboarding, snowboarding, etc. ALL of these board sports were invented by SURFERS that wanted to expand on the feeling they got riding waves. (The all caps and bold type is pretty annoying 2. don't you think?) I can remember skiing as a kid and trying to carve the slope like I was on a wave. Of course in the early 80's skis did not do that. Along came snowboarding. Another problem solved by surfers. Eventually the skiers that hated snowboarders started using shaped skis and saved the skiing industry. Now intermediate skiers can “carve” like snowboarders. Or is it carve like surfers? Surfers got bored waterskiing so they brought their surfboards to ride the wave behind the boat. Oh shit surfers just invented wakeboarding….How do these stoned idiots keep doing it?

Surfing is thousands of years old. I have surfboards in my garage older than the sport of kiteboarding. They are not even close to being collector’s items. They are just boards I liked and never got around to selling.

The "rules" of surfing and wave etiquette have been passed down for generations and are nearly universal around the world. They include having respect for locals when visiting others spots and the communities that have been built around those waves. 3. These are all things you have written against in your many posts on this subject.

These historic unwritten rules include the "retarded pecking order" that is another part of surfing that you despise. It is called having respect for those that 4. came before you and have made the sacrifice needed to become good at what they do and at what you are trying to do. I guess if you happened upon a slick being dominated by Ruben and a bunch of other pros you would just jump right in and cockblock the rotation. 5. Would it not cross your mind that maybe you should find another spot to ride or better yet sit and enjoy the show?

You seem to have a weird fascination with wanting to ride your kiteboard in the ocean like a surfer and yet trash talk surfing and its "rules". It is almost like watching a closeted homophobic politician or televangelist talk against gays. Were you ever yelled at by a surfer in the ocean as a child? Did you fail at learning to surf and then decided to take up bodysurfing? If you even rode a boggie board casually it seems you would have a better understanding of the lineup. You have gone so far as to name your business after one of the most revered surf spots in the world yet you deny the importance of surfing to your business. You could have at least called it Malibu Kiteboarding but no you had to call it Malibu Kitesurfing. Calling Dr. Freud.

Surfing etiquette 6. should apply when kiteboarding in waves 99% of the time. This means the guy riding the wave has ROW. Of course if the guy riding the wave needs to yield to the guy going out to avoid a wreck he should do so. Not a big deal the first time. Maybe the guy going out should buy him a beer. (Are you buying the next round Richard?) 7. If the guy going out gets in the way again maybe he should find another place to ride until he is a better kite[b]SURFER.

Rob Giroux


Rob:

1. Although I don't mind too much personal abuse which attacks me, I do tend to get somewhat peeved when people MISSTATE my contentions in an attempt to make my arguments less convincing.

For example, I have only ever addressed TWO issues pertaining to surfers. First, that the "retarded pecking order" is an unfair and illogical (and ILLEGAL) method of LIMITING ACCESS. And second that kitesurfers should ALWAYS give surfers (and others) a wide enough berth that they do not have their enjoyment RUINED by having to worry about being decapitated or having THEIR relatively limited number of waves STOLEN by GREEDY and vastly more maneuverable kiters.

Perhaps you could prove the foregoing statement wrong by coming up with a few ACTUAL EXAMPLES of the other statements you SAY I constantly make.

2. Admittedly, you are not alone in your opinion, however, I believe the technique can convey more information more accurately, especially for people who only skim.

3. I have NEVER advocated not "respecting" local "RULES and or GUIDELINES". As to "respecting" the local kiters, I don't see any reason to treat them any differently than anyone else, except that their advice and information regarding Local conditions should generally be given more weight.

Again, please supply even a couple of ACTUAL EXAMPLES from my "many posts".

4. Aren't you embarrassed to make such a MEANINGLESS statement as the sole support for your contention? Other than granting that someone who "came before me" is likely more knowledgeable about that particular place, you're alleging that he should have PREFERENCE regarding the USE of a PUBLIC RESOURCE simply because he has been living there longer. Assuming we're talking about the US, this attitude is ludicrous.

Then, in vain attempt to justify this baseless idea, you propose the even more ridiculous theory that he deserves this preference because of the terrible "SACRIFICES" he must have made. And these noble "SACRIFICES" were that he had spend a LOT OF TIME KITING in order to get proficient.

Yes, it makes PERFECT sense that someone unfortunate enough to have to suffer through vastly more kiting than me should be REWARDED for this tremendous "SACRIFICE" by additionally getting the GREATEST PREFERENCE and OPPORTUNITY for MORE kiting. Irrefutable logic (and fairness).

5. Call me paranoid, but I think that this statement could represent a selfish attempt to LIMIT ACCESS at said spot.

6.& 7. Display perfectly why greedy and selfish waveriders REALLY want the ROW. Without the supposed ROW justification stated in #6, there would be NO BASIS WHATSOEVER to try to LIMIT ACCESS as described in # 7.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

For those interested in the subject and can bear my writing style (let alone my words of wisdom), you can find some extensive details concerning many of my points on pages 2, 3, 5,and 6 of the thread robg mentions at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2367519 http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2367519
Titled “Who has the right of way on a wave?”

As to my writing style, I appreciate the criticism and will continue to try to reduce excessive use of emphasis.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 586
Location: texas
RichardM wrote:
Twitch wrote:
Rob - this post certainly can also settle this thread!! :thumb:
Quote:
Richard M,

You constantly write in various threads about surfers as if they are a bunch of Neanderthals and as if those who ride waves with kites in the ocean could not possibly learn anything from surfers.

Kiteboarding is a spin-off ..... these stoned idiots keep doing it?

Surfing is thousands of years .... to selling.

The "rules" of surfing and wave etiquette ..... on this subject.

These historic unwritten rules ....... enjoy the show?

You seem to have a weird fascination .... Calling Dr. Freud.

Surfing etiquette ..... kiteSURFER.

Rob Giroux


Twitch evidently didn’t see my response to robg further down the page at
posting.php?mode=edit&f=1&p=677171 http://www.kiteforum.com/posting.php?mode=edit&f=1&p=677171

robg wrote:
Richard M,

1.. You constantly write in various threads about surfers as if they are a bunch of Neanderthals and as if those who ride waves with kites in the ocean could not possibly learn anything from surfers.

Kiteboarding is a spin-off of what? Windsurfing, wakeboarding, skateboarding, snowboarding, etc. ALL of these board sports were invented by SURFERS that wanted to expand on the feeling they got riding waves. (The all caps and bold type is pretty annoying 2. don't you think?) I can remember skiing as a kid and trying to carve the slope like I was on a wave. Of course in the early 80's skis did not do that. Along came snowboarding. Another problem solved by surfers. Eventually the skiers that hated snowboarders started using shaped skis and saved the skiing industry. Now intermediate skiers can “carve” like snowboarders. Or is it carve like surfers? Surfers got bored waterskiing so they brought their surfboards to ride the wave behind the boat. Oh shit surfers just invented wakeboarding….How do these stoned idiots keep doing it?

Surfing is thousands of years old. I have surfboards in my garage older than the sport of kiteboarding. They are not even close to being collector’s items. They are just boards I liked and never got around to selling.

The "rules" of surfing and wave etiquette have been passed down for generations and are nearly universal around the world. They include having respect for locals when visiting others spots and the communities that have been built around those waves. 3. These are all things you have written against in your many posts on this subject.

These historic unwritten rules include the "retarded pecking order" that is another part of surfing that you despise. It is called having respect for those that 4. came before you and have made the sacrifice needed to become good at what they do and at what you are trying to do. I guess if you happened upon a slick being dominated by Ruben and a bunch of other pros you would just jump right in and cockblock the rotation. 5. Would it not cross your mind that maybe you should find another spot to ride or better yet sit and enjoy the show?

You seem to have a weird fascination with wanting to ride your kiteboard in the ocean like a surfer and yet trash talk surfing and its "rules". It is almost like watching a closeted homophobic politician or televangelist talk against gays. Were you ever yelled at by a surfer in the ocean as a child? Did you fail at learning to surf and then decided to take up bodysurfing? If you even rode a boggie board casually it seems you would have a better understanding of the lineup. You have gone so far as to name your business after one of the most revered surf spots in the world yet you deny the importance of surfing to your business. You could have at least called it Malibu Kiteboarding but no you had to call it Malibu Kitesurfing. Calling Dr. Freud.

Surfing etiquette 6. should apply when kiteboarding in waves 99% of the time. This means the guy riding the wave has ROW. Of course if the guy riding the wave needs to yield to the guy going out to avoid a wreck he should do so. Not a big deal the first time. Maybe the guy going out should buy him a beer. (Are you buying the next round Richard?) 7. If the guy going out gets in the way again maybe he should find another place to ride until he is a better kite[b]SURFER.

Rob Giroux


Rob:

1. Although I don't mind too much personal abuse which attacks me, I do tend to get somewhat peeved when people MISSTATE my contentions in an attempt to make my arguments less convincing.

For example, I have only ever addressed TWO issues pertaining to surfers. First, that the "retarded pecking order" is an unfair and illogical (and ILLEGAL) method of LIMITING ACCESS. And second that kitesurfers should ALWAYS give surfers (and others) a wide enough berth that they do not have their enjoyment RUINED by having to worry about being decapitated or having THEIR relatively limited number of waves STOLEN by GREEDY and vastly more maneuverable kiters.

Perhaps you could prove the foregoing statement wrong by coming up with a few ACTUAL EXAMPLES of the other statements you SAY I constantly make.

2. Admittedly, you are not alone in your opinion, however, I believe the technique can convey more information more accurately, especially for people who only skim.

3. I have NEVER advocated not "respecting" local "RULES and or GUIDELINES". As to "respecting" the local kiters, I don't see any reason to treat them any differently than anyone else, except that their advice and information regarding Local conditions should generally be given more weight.

Again, please supply even a couple of ACTUAL EXAMPLES from my "many posts".

4. Aren't you embarrassed to make such a MEANINGLESS statement as the sole support for your contention? Other than granting that someone who "came before me" is likely more knowledgeable about that particular place, you're alleging that he should have PREFERENCE regarding the USE of a PUBLIC RESOURCE simply because he has been living there longer. Assuming we're talking about the US, this attitude is ludicrous.

Then, in vain attempt to justify this baseless idea, you propose the even more ridiculous theory that he deserves this preference because of the terrible "SACRIFICES" he must have made. And these noble "SACRIFICES" were that he had spend a LOT OF TIME KITING in order to get proficient.

Yes, it makes PERFECT sense that someone unfortunate enough to have to suffer through vastly more kiting than me should be REWARDED for this tremendous "SACRIFICE" by additionally getting the GREATEST PREFERENCE and OPPORTUNITY for MORE kiting. Irrefutable logic (and fairness).

5. Call me paranoid, but I think that this statement could represent a selfish attempt to LIMIT ACCESS at said spot.

6.& 7. Display perfectly why greedy and selfish waveriders REALLY want the ROW. Without the supposed ROW justification stated in #6, there would be NO BASIS WHATSOEVER to try to LIMIT ACCESS as described in # 7.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

For those interested in the subject and can bear my writing style (let alone my words of wisdom), you can find some extensive details concerning many of my points on pages 2, 3, 5,and 6 of the thread robg mentions at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2367519 http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2367519
Titled “Who has the right of way on a wave?”

As to my writing style, I appreciate the criticism and will continue to try to reduce excessive use of emphasis.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET



I can't believe i am saying this but these two posts make really make want to hear from SupaEZ right now.

Need some coffee to lift this brain fog


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:17 am
Posts: 2171
Location: Save a life...adopt a Pitbull
RichardM wrote:
I don’t understand the hostility regarding EMPHASIS in printed communication.
Not only are all the foregoing ques missing from printed communications, but many people would prefer to SKIM stuff to get through it as quickly as possible. In these cases, someone may only take the time to read more carefully IF they’ve seen something while skimming which attracted their attention. This effect becomes more important the less attention the writer expects the reader to be paying in the first place.

Although, it is possible to overdo emphasis in print, just like in an obnoxious radio or TV ad, the DIFFERENCE is that you can’t shut off your ears. On the other hand, if you find emphasis in print too visually obnoxious, YOU DON’T HAVE TO READ IT.

In most of my forum posts I take the EXTRA TIME AND EFFORT to add VARIOUS types of emphasis in an attempt to both make it easier to skim AND less subject to MISINTERPRETATION. In fact, I’ve frequently wondered whether a certain amount of the hostility towards emphasis (on the forums) is due to a frustrated desire to DELIBERATELY misinterpret the content in order to promote a different opinion.

It might be noted that I don't use smileys which are ALSO a way to add emphasis to print but usually in a more VAGUE way.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET
I fully understand that written communication, which might seem to provide the opportunity to communicate very precisely, often fails to do so because we are without the added benefit of body language and facial expression, as you said.
Some people are great communicators, both verbally and in written form...and some are not.
Your written communication is clearly done with good spelling and sentence structure, but comes off as a bit exasperated and contemptuous towards your audience.
This is the feeling I get, and from what others are posting, I am not the only one.
Bombarding people with capital letters, bolding, underlining, multiple colors and various font sizing, to create emphasis, seems condescending, overdone and obnoxious.
I really appreciate that you don't flood your posts with piles of emoticons, as we have all seen here in the last year or so, that can be very annoying.
I don't skim when I read, which might explain why my wife reads three books to every one I finish.
But most of us have learned to shut off our ears when there is too much aural input, and to "not see" things after being visually bombarded with advertising every day.
I'm not sure the problem is with the reader, as it pertains to your posts.
I think people naturally skip over print copy that does not flow well.
Now might be a good time to rethink your writing style/ad copy/web design and make a few adjustments and alterations.
Good luck. :bye:


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 Post subject: Re: Elitist segregation in kite surfing.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:03 am
Posts: 78
RichardM,

You do KNOW that I replied to the post you were so kind as to repost. I just read it to refresh my memory and it looked like you amazingly enough lost the argument and left the forum for a while.

Do I need to repost my reply or can anyone who is interested just visit the 3 year old thread?

Rob


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