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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Interesting, I´ve always thought it would be great if the kite would position a little bit further on the wind window. A picture would indeed help a lot as I can't get my mind around the modifications you made. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Here are three pictures to show the alteration.


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:44 am 
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giovasurf: Thanks for starting the thread. I'm super stoked for all riders to actively tune their gear to their personal preferences. And I think sharing experiences helps everyone.

dlprince69: Thanks for the comments and pictures.

I received some questions by email a while back but wasn't aware of this thread specifically until earlier this week. I'll post my comments if they can be useful to any riders.

I haven't tested exactly this change but from related testing I suspect that for this bridle and for my riding the only notable change might be it shortening the front lines vs back by 15 - 20 mm. Given the sensitive tuning of these kites this amount can make a notable difference that would be consistent with the comments posted here. The super tricky thing is that my experience has been that no two riders are exactly alike. So riders willing to explore the tuning of their gear may well find combinations that better suit their individual styles and preferences.

I tune the kites to be right on the boarder of stall. At this setting to get the most out of the kites may require some attention from the rider. Some riders find this natural. Other riders prefer less sensitivity and get better performance with different tuning. Can be influenced by any number of things beyond just preference like control bar travel and line stretch. One huge area of influence is the efficiency or drag of the board being ridden and how much "pull" is needed from the kite influencing how much the rider is sheeting in and the angle of attack of the kite.

To make the kites less sensitive I think the easier adjustment might be adding a knot at the back lines on the kite outside the existing knot. I suggest keeping the existing knot in place for reference and just adding a second to extend the back lines. This will allow some riders to fully sheet in with better results for their riding.

How the kite is trimmed has huge impact on where it positions in the window. Fully sheeted out the kite positions back in the window. At moderate angles of attack it flies super far to the edge of the window. At higher angles of attack the kite will position back in the window (and likely be slower across the window as you pointed out dlprince69).

Its no exaggeration that one rider will rave about the kite's upwind ability while the next does not find it strong upwind. My feeling is that much of this is related to how we sheet the bar as we ride. If flown aggressively sheeted in the kite will not excel upwind with the way the kites come tuned. Longer back lines will make a huge difference as its easier to make an adjustment in the gear's tuning than to the individual differences in our natural riding techniques. For my personal handling technique the original tuning gives access to the maximum steering responsiveness and a wider sheeting range.

Feel like I kind of described that in circles. Please come back with any questions. Thanks. -Greg


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:25 pm 
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It looks to me like the inside end of the lower V will be moved very slightly closer to the centre of the L/E?

That means the front line at the bottom of the lower V should also move closer to the centre of the L/E.

So mostly the front line moves inward toward the centreline of the kite but also moves slightly forwards.

At the same angle of attack, that should increase the load on the front lines and reduce the load on the steering lines?
Which should slightly flatten the Arc of the L/E?
That change in shape should slightly widen the turning circle?
And slightly increase the power?
The problem I see with the above is that it treats the kite as rigid, whereas, the canopy tension could change the canopy profile in either a good or bad way.

The extra distance between the front line and rear line should result in slightly slower steering for the same bar movement and slightly slower sheeting?

I have done some bridle mods on an Omega kite and was surprised how a very small difference in bridle length (when you have pulleys or sliders) can make a big difference at the lines. This was between one side of the kite and the other, where a tiny uneven-ness on the inner bridle V was multiplied by about 20 or 30 when it got to the line lengths. That was using very short bridle lengths though - deeper V's are less sensitive.


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:35 pm 
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ronnie,
I agree with your understanding of small changes to the lower inside V length. Shorter slightly flattens canopy - Moved center of pull of the power lines forward and toward the center line of the kite.

Back in the day with two line stunt kites, moving the center of pull forward and in caused lighter pull, lighter wind capability and more of a slower pivot turn.

With the four line setup, the same aspects exist with the downside of higher bar pressure and a more direct feel to the steering lines.

david


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:39 am 
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Any new thoughts on the topic? Considering trying this on my 10m cloud


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:35 am 
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darippah wrote:
Any new thoughts on the topic? Considering trying this on my 10m cloud


The thing I wonder about is canopy tension. The kite canopy has been designed to have the right tension in a certain shape. By flattening the L/E in the centre, that should affect the canopy tension - (probably reducing it).

It is something that would only be proved by back to back testing in exactly the same conditions - which is difficult to do.


On a different tack - I have this idea that maybe the best light wind relaunch is by having the bridles exactly the same lengths as they are now but allowing the front lines able to move more toward the centre of the L/E. Ken Winner says the relaunch is better with 5 lines than 4.
http://www.sbckiteboard.com/features_ar ... view=print
I find that the IDS kites I have are very easy to manipulate into whatever position you want .


I'm guessing that the best relaunch would be to get the kite to flip over as if you had messed it up and it was going to drop on it's back, but just as it is almost fallen onto it's back, you start pumping it into the air from directly downwind using the front lines. You would have to hold the front lines in exactly the right position to get the perfect angle of attack and move your hands lower down the front lines as the perfect angle of attack would change as the kite was pumped into the air.


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:52 pm 
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you can do that launch with the cloud, no need for perfect, just "good enough"
Normal reverse or spin onto ear launch is easier and lower risk though.
It relaunches great unless you manage to get water pooled in the canopy in light wind, then you need to fiddle with it a bit....


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 Post subject: Re: trimming cloud 17
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:33 am 
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BWD wrote:
you can do that launch with the cloud, no need for perfect, just "good enough"
Normal reverse or spin onto ear launch is easier and lower risk though.
It relaunches great unless you manage to get water pooled in the canopy in light wind, then you need to fiddle with it a bit....


I'm interested in finding the lightest possible wind relaunch and ways to better manoeuvre the kite into the right position in all circumstances.
With its bigger L/E I think the C1 might be easier to manoeuvre with an IDS type bridle.
With really light wind, I found that I couldn't get the water off the canopy with the standard bridle.

I'll do some experiments with the standard size bridle but one that lets the sliders move further inward - in very light wind once it warms up here and we get some light steady winds.

One other thing, because it has no struts, the Cloud depowers on two front lines with an IDS type bridle way more than any strutted kite would.


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