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 Post subject: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Working?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:45 am 
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I've been trying to design a bar for myself for awhile and I think I've found a solution to the front line swivel without sacrificing a single front line flag out safety.
Heres my idea.
Using Q-Line
Mutiny Front line Swivel
North 2011 Chicken Loop
Switch Bar modded for Norths microloop and hook upgrade
Flying Ozone Edges

Does this idea pose any concerns that I might be missing?
Front line B will be one line powered from the bottom of the release instead of at the swivel.
So far, the only thing I can see is that front line B will twist if I do rotations or loops in one direction enough, but easy to sort out in the pre flight setups.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:27 am 
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Cool concept, but looks to me when the trim line is pulled through the cleat, it's going to shorten Line A but leave Line B the same length. This would result in uneven front lines & only reduce the AOA on one side. That is, if you are attempting to power Line B from the CL & not the swivel.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:50 am 
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Hahaha, :lol: I knew I was missing something. Just seemed too easy. I guess its back to the Oh Shit handle for now or run a 5th (not likely). Some company is gonna sell a lot of bars when they figure this one out. It would be great to have front lines that auto sorted themselves. Late night brainstorming fail.
Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:57 am 
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flybykite wrote:
Hahaha, :lol: I knew I was missing something. Just seemed too easy. I guess its back to the Oh Shit handle for now or run a 5th (not likely). Some company is gonna sell a lot of bars when they figure this one out. It would be great to have front lines that auto sorted themselves.
Thanks


I don't get the problem - some bars flag to both front lines (North Quad bar) and some to only one front line with a swivel (Naish, Blade). The Blade Uni bar looks a lot like your design except line B is connected to a safety line that cannot pass through the swivel. So both lines pull at the swivel, but safety flags to line B.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:39 am 
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I don't know if this'll help, but the Switch cam cleat actually has the depower rope set up in a big S, allowing you to adjust the bar throw and the amount of depower available.

The connection at the Mutiny for your safety line - I'm pretty sure that Slingshot and Naish just lark's head the safety to the center line. When you hit the QR, the whole length of line feeds through the bar and QR system. Can't remember how SS does it, but Naish has the safety go through the bar then beside the QR to a big steel loop, so there's no chance of the lark's head jamming. I think the Switch QR would have a big enough hole to allow the lark's head to pass through too, but not enough of a safety margin for a single line system.

The Mutiny should swivel if you do rotations in one direction. If not, the North QR has the rotating head on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:16 pm 
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I have looked at most available bars/swivels.

1. The mutiny swivel cannot implement a single line flag out unless you drill it since there is no access from the mouse ear to the center hole of the swivel, hence you cannot implement the B line connection the way you have drawn it. You would need a swivel from SS, naish, blade or LF for that.

2. The hole through the CL on the Switch bar is not big enough to feed the safety line with the lark's head knot through - you might be able to frill it out but in general that would weaken the the assembly.

3. Of the swivels, Blade and LF are the best with ceramic bearings, Naish will get clogged up with sand and stop working, same for SS. If mutiny opened up the sides of the swivel to allow connection to the front line, that would probably be the best option. Don't try to drill the mutiny swivel for side access, even then the angle is too big and the knot will get stuck in an emergency and will not pull through properly.

V


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:22 pm 
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icebird wrote:
flybykite wrote:
Hahaha, :lol: I knew I was missing something. Just seemed too easy. I guess its back to the Oh Shit handle for now or run a 5th (not likely). Some company is gonna sell a lot of bars when they figure this one out. It would be great to have front lines that auto sorted themselves.
Thanks


I don't get the problem - some bars flag to both front lines (North Quad bar) and some to only one front line with a swivel (Naish, Blade). The Blade Uni bar looks a lot like your design except line B is connected to a safety line that cannot pass through the swivel. So both lines pull at the swivel, but safety flags to line B.


You would get the problem if you had carefully looked the Switch bar on hand. Basically, the switch bar does not have a single line flagging system below the bar. To achieve that you need to hook up to the red handle at the line organizer which then has your leash wrapping around your lines as you loop the kite.

V


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:25 pm 
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bgkiter wrote:
I have looked at most available bars/swivels.

1. The mutiny swivel cannot implement a single line flag out unless you drill it since there is no access from the mouse ear to the center hole of the swivel, hence you cannot implement the B line connection the way you have drawn it. You would need a swivel from SS, naish, blade or LF for that.

2. The hole through the CL on the Switch bar is not big enough to feed the safety line with the lark's head knot through - you might be able to frill it out but in general that would weaken the the assembly.

3. Of the swivels, Blade and LF are the best with ceramic bearings, Naish will get clogged up with sand and stop working, same for SS. If mutiny opened up the sides of the swivel to allow connection to the front line, that would probably be the best option. Don't try to drill the mutiny swivel for side access, even then the angle is too big and the knot will get stuck in an emergency and will not pull through properly.

V

Shame about #2 - thought it was bigger :(

Are all those swivels a little different in design? I thought they were the same, just rebranded.

EDIT: no, the Naish one is "open"... the Wainman one looks similar too.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Kamikuza wrote:
bgkiter wrote:
I have looked at most available bars/swivels.

1. The mutiny swivel cannot implement a single line flag out unless you drill it since there is no access from the mouse ear to the center hole of the swivel, hence you cannot implement the B line connection the way you have drawn it. You would need a swivel from SS, naish, blade or LF for that.

2. The hole through the CL on the Switch bar is not big enough to feed the safety line with the lark's head knot through - you might be able to frill it out but in general that would weaken the the assembly.

3. Of the swivels, Blade and LF are the best with ceramic bearings, Naish will get clogged up with sand and stop working, same for SS. If mutiny opened up the sides of the swivel to allow connection to the front line, that would probably be the best option. Don't try to drill the mutiny swivel for side access, even then the angle is too big and the knot will get stuck in an emergency and will not pull through properly.

V

Shame about #2 - thought it was bigger :(

Are all those swivels a little different in design? I thought they were the same, just rebranded.

EDIT: no, the Naish one is "open"... the Wainman one looks similar too.

Image


Blade, LF, Naish, SS - same basic design with open sides allowing single line flag out. They differ in size and quality/type of bearing. The mutiny swivel is relatively shallow (low height), has a self lubricating bearing and closed sides. Would work for a fifth line flag out.

For a good CL with a big enough center hole to feed the flag out line + knot look at the Ben Wilson surf CL (above the bar depower). Also LF CL, but that has its own "features" like difficult below the bar depower cleat and the possibility to lose the CL assembly if you eject and your leash is not through it.


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 Post subject: Re: Front line swivel mod w/ single front line safety,Workin
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Kamikuza wrote:
Naish has the safety go through the bar then beside the QR to a big steel loop, so there's no chance of the lark's head jamming. I think the Switch QR would have a big enough hole to allow the lark's head to pass through too, but not enough of a safety margin for a single line system.
3. Of the swivels, Blade and LF are the best with ceramic bearings,

You might be on to something here if I make side safety system "beside the QR" Then I could bypass the small holes of the north system and let a knot pass easily. I'm thinking perhaps a steel ring tied to the steel bar just above the QR on the north setup.
Thanks for the info on the swivels, If I go for the LF or Blade swivel, will a larks head be enough bulk to stop at the swivel still allowing me to use my depower? A small stopper ball would do it but I would need to tie a knot to stop the line at the ball so both lines are still loading at the swivel..
I will want to keep the North QR since I am using the micro loop and hook. No other system has this option for me.
Are the LF Swivels super smooth under load? It does not take much force to start twisting the front lines instead of turning the swivel.
So heres another diagram


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