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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Tiago1973 wrote:
is there any small boat sailing class able to foil?

i understand those who love, but personnaly always found sailing boring as f***. but these AC72 are nothing like that

so, is there somewhere a mini-mini-mini-AC72s?


The Moth


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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:09 pm 
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jrfiol wrote:
Tiago1973 wrote:
is there any small boat sailing class able to foil?

i understand those who love, but personnaly always found sailing boring as f***. but these AC72 are nothing like that

so, is there somewhere a mini-mini-mini-AC72s?


The Moth



Those things are Slow ; what he wants is a foiling C-class catamaran :

https://www.google.com/search?q=foiling ... =614&dpr=1

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:41 pm 
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thanks billie, u got it right

actually learn there is something going on called "Little America's Cup"


video not working, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ausTKd-D ... 8CB1CB5B0A

& another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqagoX7HefA


looks cool. wonder how they would match against a kite


Last edited by Tiago1973 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:56 pm 
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I like this forum. As a sailor and kiter, I might be able to add some insight but you guys are pretty much spot on.

The Moth is a monohull foiler, I'd say its about comparable in speed to the C-Class Catamarans depending on wind speed (this is speculation since I'm not aware of any head to head races happening yet). The big difference is that a Moth can foil upwind whereas the C-Class cats cannot. Both can foil downwind no problem. So around a race course, Moth will generally win because it flies upwind whereas the cat drags in the water.

The reason that Oracle had their crazy comeback and beat NZ from an 8-1 deficit is that Oracle figured out how to foil upwind. While NZ had an entire 72 foot hull dragging in the water, Oracle was flying (not 100% of the time but they started pointing lower to go faster to fly generally) with 2 ft of hull dragging in the water (the foils). As a result, both boats were even downwind, but Oracle smoked them upwind every time.

Watch race 1 vs race 19 you see the difference; when you watch Oracle going upwind, their leeward hull (the downwind one not in the air) is flying on its foils a bunch. NZ is in the water....losing the cup. Great match either way, both teams are the tits.

Race 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY5S66FGfTM

Race 19: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHdmviq1kyg


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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Mark 1 is right in front of Crissy Field beach.


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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:39 am 
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stefaans wrote:
Mark 1 is right in front of Crissy Field beach.

Thanks for the local info Stefaans. What is the best time of year to visit SF for kiting. This would be a kiting trip for me with my non kiting spouse who always wants to go to SF for more trivial reasons (food, culture,sites, etc.) Hope to keep us both happy.


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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:13 pm 
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laxman8689 wrote:
The reason that Oracle had their crazy comeback and beat NZ from an 8-1 deficit is that Oracle figured out how to foil upwind. While NZ had an entire 72 foot hull dragging in the water, Oracle was flying (not 100% of the time but they started pointing lower to go faster to fly generally) with 2 ft of hull dragging in the water (the foils). As a result, both boats were even downwind, but Oracle smoked them upwind every time.
q1kyg



No they didn't figure out how to foil upwind they fitted the self tacking jib. In other words they cheated.
Which is why ETNZ are now taking legal action. Word is out that there's an insider willing to spill the beans. Watch this space. Everyone knows it's to good to be true to be on 8 match points & getting flogged to winning every race & now doing the flogging.



The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship.

The vital words are at the opening of the second sentence 'her crew' - meaning that an automated adjustment which works independently of crew intervention is illegal.


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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:32 pm 
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Wiski23 wrote:
laxman8689 wrote:
The reason that Oracle had their crazy comeback and beat NZ from an 8-1 deficit is that Oracle figured out how to foil upwind. While NZ had an entire 72 foot hull dragging in the water, Oracle was flying (not 100% of the time but they started pointing lower to go faster to fly generally) with 2 ft of hull dragging in the water (the foils). As a result, both boats were even downwind, but Oracle smoked them upwind every time.
q1kyg



No they didn't figure out how to foil upwind they fitted the self tacking jib. In other words they cheated.
Which is why ETNZ are now taking legal action. Word is out that there's an insider willing to spill the beans. Watch this space. Everyone knows it's to good to be true to be on 8 match points & getting flogged to winning every race & now doing the flogging.



The Racing Rules on the matter are very clear RRS42 Propulsion states: A yacht shall compete only by using the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the wing, sails, rudders, daggerboards and hulls, and perform other acts of seamanship.

The vital words are at the opening of the second sentence 'her crew' - meaning that an automated adjustment which works independently of crew intervention is illegal.


Could you explain "they fitted the self tacking jib"?

I do kid you when I say, so sorry for the loss! :-D


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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Speculation is oracle fitted an automatic control in their hydrfoil trim but it was powered by a crew member grinding a hydraulic system the team got permission on sep 3rd but didn't fit it until they looked like they would lose when Larry flew the entire Zealand design team down and installed it overnight which must have cost a bundle. kiwis needed to protest when they were notified not after they started losing that's in the rules too.

I'm not sure if you can say that's the only reason they did get better in every way nolot just foil trimming and you can't tell me the kiwis didn't choke

I don't think itis just one mod they were constantly improving the basket and kiwis were not as hungry


Last edited by edt on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: So... whose watching the america's cup races?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:58 pm 
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To quote a guy on a sailing forum, here's the ETNZ grieving process:

Quote:
Kübler-Ross model (updated)



1. Denial

2. Anger

3. Bargaining Litigation

4. Depression

5. Acceptance


The system on the oracle boat apparently was inspected and passed by the boat measurers. It is up to them if it is illegal or not. They said it was legal. Then NZ tried to protest it.
The response was, to simplify/paraphrase,
"Your protest is too late, and even if it wasn't too late, it wouldn't have succeeded."
In other words, official verdict was no cheating.

This thing about the jib? Is that supposed to be a joke?
Obviously both have several jibs of different sizes, yes the oracle team used smaller ones at the end of the regatta in stronger wind. Nothing wrong with that.

The improved foil control was important, but bringing Ainslie in and getting the wing trimmer up to speed and in sync with the afterguard was equally important imo.
Remember at the beginning Oracle lost big on every maneuver, out of sync and imperfect timing, on or off the foils.


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