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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:07 am 
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I've been riding 5 line kites for years, they have advantages and disadvantages.

5th line wraps do happen, for me I've a lot of experience with 5 line kites so can get the kite back in the air by turning the kite and sliding the 5th line off buts not 100% guaranteed and will still require a trip back to the beach to re-rig. For a newbie it isn't an easy thing to do. I've never seen a kite cut in half by a 5th line wrap, in fact never seen any evidence online either so I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it's extremely rare - I've seen more kites split from just being crashed than 5th line wraps so I'd be more worried about that than cutting a kite in half with the 5th line!

Advantages.......

A dedicated safety line that flags the kite out without any spins or loops. Also means I can self land my kites precisely without the kite even hitting the floor, good for kiting on busy beaches :thumb: Although you must be aware, recovering a kite flagged onto a 5th line can be extremely hard in high winds - but I'd rather be safe and it take a while to get the kite back than be attached to a spiralling kite or on a mini 5th line rare the kite still flies when released to safety :o

The main advantage of 5th lines is the feel - 4 line kites or bridled kites just do not have the solid feel of 5th line kites, the drive you get through the turns and the solid shape in gusts.

Personally I'd love to fly 4 lines, less to go wrong but yet to fly a 4 line kite that has the feel of a 5 line kite.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:09 am 
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luke-warmwater wrote:
Hello Dan,

You mention in your posting that if you get the 5th line wrapped, 'it will slide off to the side'. There must be a technique for making this happen and I think it would be very helpful if you could explain the best way to do this. Is it just a case of pulling in a load of back line until the kite rotates side-on? Should I stay hooked in or should I release the chicken loop? On other posts I've read that some people suggest pulling in a lots of 5th line until it unwraps itself but I havnt had much success with that.

I think a good description of the best technique to get a wrapped 5th line to slide off would be very helpful and might put many peoples' concerns to rest.


You pretty much have it, pull back line in to turn kite them try and flick/slide 5th line off. To be honest there is no 1 technique that is guaranteed, it's all practice and trying different things, its easy when you have had some practice - it's only taken me 10 years to perfect the tchnique :rollgrin:


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:51 am 
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JGTR wrote:
I've been riding 5 line kites for years, they have advantages and disadvantages.

5th line wraps do happen, for me I've a lot of experience with 5 line kites so can get the kite back in the air by turning the kite and sliding the 5th line off buts not 100% guaranteed and will still require a trip back to the beach to re-rig. For a newbie it isn't an easy thing to do. I've never seen a kite cut in half by a 5th line wrap, in fact never seen any evidence online either so I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it's extremely rare - I've seen more kites split from just being crashed than 5th line wraps so I'd be more worried about that than cutting a kite in half with the 5th line!

Advantages.......

A dedicated safety line that flags the kite out without any spins or loops. Also means I can self land my kites precisely without the kite even hitting the floor, good for kiting on busy beaches :thumb: Although you must be aware, recovering a kite flagged onto a 5th line can be extremely hard in high winds - but I'd rather be safe and it take a while to get the kite back than be attached to a spiralling kite or on a mini 5th line rare the kite still flies when released to safety :o

The main advantage of 5th lines is the feel - 4 line kites or bridled kites just do not have the solid feel of 5th line kites, the drive you get through the turns and the solid shape in gusts.

Personally I'd love to fly 4 lines, less to go wrong but yet to fly a 4 line kite that has the feel of a 5 line kite.




On the last point I have found that to except for the Dice. It flies far better on four lines. No difference in canopy shape holding itself together, but way more bottom end and way more responsive.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:18 pm 
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Westozzy wrote:
JGTR wrote:
I've been riding 5 line kites for years, they have advantages and disadvantages.

5th line wraps do happen, for me I've a lot of experience with 5 line kites so can get the kite back in the air by turning the kite and sliding the 5th line off buts not 100% guaranteed and will still require a trip back to the beach to re-rig. For a newbie it isn't an easy thing to do. I've never seen a kite cut in half by a 5th line wrap, in fact never seen any evidence online either so I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it's extremely rare - I've seen more kites split from just being crashed than 5th line wraps so I'd be more worried about that than cutting a kite in half with the 5th line!

Advantages.......

A dedicated safety line that flags the kite out without any spins or loops. Also means I can self land my kites precisely without the kite even hitting the floor, good for kiting on busy beaches :thumb: Although you must be aware, recovering a kite flagged onto a 5th line can be extremely hard in high winds - but I'd rather be safe and it take a while to get the kite back than be attached to a spiralling kite or on a mini 5th line rare the kite still flies when released to safety :o

The main advantage of 5th lines is the feel - 4 line kites or bridled kites just do not have the solid feel of 5th line kites, the drive you get through the turns and the solid shape in gusts.

Personally I'd love to fly 4 lines, less to go wrong but yet to fly a 4 line kite that has the feel of a 5 line kite.




On the last point I have found that to except for the Dice. It flies far better on four lines. No difference in canopy shape holding itself together, but way more bottom end and way more responsive.



Maybe, I'll reserve judgement until I get to fly a dice, I take new kite info with a pinch of salt these days as a lot is pimping

Out of interest do u have any affiliation with North??


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:25 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Milan
The Dice should have NO difference flying with 4 or 5 lines
The 5th is not structural at all, and should be loose all the time while flying
Not a 5th like on rebels, torch, etc


JGTR wrote:
Westozzy wrote:
JGTR wrote:
I've been riding 5 line kites for years, they have advantages and disadvantages.

5th line wraps do happen, for me I've a lot of experience with 5 line kites so can get the kite back in the air by turning the kite and sliding the 5th line off buts not 100% guaranteed and will still require a trip back to the beach to re-rig. For a newbie it isn't an easy thing to do. I've never seen a kite cut in half by a 5th line wrap, in fact never seen any evidence online either so I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it's extremely rare - I've seen more kites split from just being crashed than 5th line wraps so I'd be more worried about that than cutting a kite in half with the 5th line!

Advantages.......

A dedicated safety line that flags the kite out without any spins or loops. Also means I can self land my kites precisely without the kite even hitting the floor, good for kiting on busy beaches :thumb: Although you must be aware, recovering a kite flagged onto a 5th line can be extremely hard in high winds - but I'd rather be safe and it take a while to get the kite back than be attached to a spiralling kite or on a mini 5th line rare the kite still flies when released to safety :o

The main advantage of 5th lines is the feel - 4 line kites or bridled kites just do not have the solid feel of 5th line kites, the drive you get through the turns and the solid shape in gusts.

Personally I'd love to fly 4 lines, less to go wrong but yet to fly a 4 line kite that has the feel of a 5 line kite.




On the last point I have found that to except for the Dice. It flies far better on four lines. No difference in canopy shape holding itself together, but way more bottom end and way more responsive.



Maybe, I'll reserve judgement until I get to fly a dice, I take new kite info with a pinch of salt these days as a lot is pimping

Out of interest do u have any affiliation with North??


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:33 pm 
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Location: North Carolina - USA
@gvironda

That's what I would have thought as well but check out Dan-at-North's post on the Question for Dan at North - dice 2014 thread copied below:

Dan-at-North wrote:
Funny. I've always said that other than tuning a little bit for different relative line lengths based on the height of the "Y" there isn't much difference flying our 4 line kites on 4 or 5 lines. I've found that to be largely true for the Evo, Fuse, and Dyno. However, someone recently told me that the Dice does not fly as well on 5 lines. I was doubtful until a couple days ago when I flew a Dice 12m on 5 lines, and now I completely agree.
For me, the 5th line was slightly slack, so I don't think that the 5th line tension was screwing up the kite, but if you have tension on your 5th line then I'd say it's probably not doing anything good. For me, simply the height of the "Y" seemed to make the kite fly poorly. It was (counterintuitively) oversheeted, and I had to pull several inches of depower to get the tips to stop flaring, and even then the kite felt simultaneously oversheeted and undersheeted. It was a weird feeling. The kite flew OK, but I've been loving that kite on 4 lines and I definitely wasn't loving it on 5. Then again, the wind was a little weird that day, so I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems that the Dice much prefers being flown on our 4-line bar.
My recommendation would be to try to get a Quad bar, at least to test, but that you will probably end up wanting to buy one if you don't have one already.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:36 pm
Posts: 199
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Westozzy, I've read a lot of your post on this forum and for the most part I think your right on, but your quote "Ridden plenty of kites that are far more direct in feel than the fifth line rebel " is typical of someone who has a hidden agenda or just likes to rant. I think it is beneath you to say that and it seriously jeopardizes your credibility on any issue you choose to comment on in the future.............

As has been said " it's a trade off " the positives are numerous and more important than the negatives, which is why the Rebel is the worlds leading seller, which it wouldn't be if Westozzy was right..........

Getting a wrapped 5th line back in the air does take some practice. First, you have to make sure you have as little tension on the 5th line as possible. Second, you need to pull lots of rear line, so much so that you have to be careful of getting it tangled around you.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:13 pm 
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North 5th Element is a loaded 5th line so surely any kite using 5th Element will have a loaded 5th line otherwise the 5th line would dangle about.

North 2013 Evo are loaded 5th line kites even thought they are "bow" kites.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:59 pm
Posts: 171
Great post Dan!

From my "subjective" position - I see lots of Rebels here at my homespot (Cape Town) in the waves... I really have never seen one cut in half... even after some tumbles in the waves...

I got two brand new Rebels 2014 lying in their backpacks next to me waiting till my cast on my arm gets taken off in 5 weeks (my first Norths and first time 5 line)... I am actually more worried about the hassle in walking out the lines and making sure everything is connected correctly... 4 lines seems so much more simple, but I decided to give the Rebel's a chance.. maybe its just about getting used to it...

what I actually wanted to say: :D
The German kite magazine measured the pull after releasing... I will only get the magazine in two weeks, but I already heard that the kite with the largest pull was the Dice... I wonder how the 5 liners compared to the 4 liners... I will keep you posted!

P.S.
They also measured lift and hangtime... from what I heard, the Switchblade won... I will keep you posted on the details once I get the magazine...


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:12 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: CubaKiteLessons.com
I fly five lines since 2005 with not a single issue. I use customised bar with wave grenade just in case. I don't buy north because of this patent issue just like I don't buy microsoft or apple for that matter. Fifth line was Wipika invention so no you haven't invented it north. Any company wasting excessive resources on patent wars will fall behind sooner or later. Just recently I bought 2013 Park and immediately I fitted it with five lines because it flu like shit on that pulley bridle. Never had a kitemare with five lines either. All high performance kites use five lines. There is nothing better for kite loops direct steering and axial turning. If you want on and off pivotal turning beginner kite go with four lines but don't call yourself a pro. There is no better system to control the kite that flies deep in the window without backstalling too. For anyone kiting inland in gusty wind tricky launches there is no better/safer period.


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