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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Whoa. Lots to address here:

Don-
Westozzy is not the first to describe the Rebel as mushy. I personally disagree with him, but it may be a semantic thing. What I look for in a kite is positive bar feedback, where bar pressure increases as you sheet in. This is much more prominent in 5-line kites than 4, but what Westozzy may be referring to is the way the kite feels as it turns, which some describe as feeling more like a flat kite than a "C" kite. While I think the Rebel feels very direct, I understand what he means and especially since he's not the first to say that by a longshot I would definitely not say that he is wrong, and to discount his opinion, which seems pretty accurate and informed all around, and through experience as opposed to marketing, I think is a mistake.

JGTR-
That is incorrect info on the 5th line, though I can't blame you for the assumptions, especially considering a misprint on the 2013 Evo... When flown on the 5th Element bar, all of our 4-line kites (Evo, Fuse, Dyno, Neo, and Dice) should have a little slack in the 5th line above the "Y". The 5th line is NOT loaded. It is only for safety and relaunch assistance. I know the 2013 Evo has "loaded 5th line" printed on the LE (and maybe on the bag too) but this was an error in printing. It was supposed to say "4 or 5 line compatible". Also, just to correct a technicality, I believe all 2013 and earlier Evos are considered delta shaped, not bow shaped.

Heinzbush-
I'd be interested in hearing the results of that test. I have not personally tested self rescue/dropping to the safety on the Dice, though I watched a local rider hit the release and it worked as well as all our other 4-line kites, depowering completely and ending up nose-down facing into the wind as you would expect.

Tony-
Thanks for linking to that. Still waiting for more feedback from people to verify what I experienced on the 5-line setup.

Marlboroughman-
Funny that you don't buy North because we have a patent on the 5th line yet you buy Naish... Naish owns the patent on the push-away release. And they only own it because another brand which had it first screwed up the paperwork in filing, and Naish used that loophole to get the patent for themselves, only after some expensive litigation. Plus there's the fact that it's a patent for a safety device, which some would argue should be shared openly in an effort to make the entire sport safer.

-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:57 pm 
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marlboroughman wrote:
I fly five lines since 2005 with not a single issue. I use customised bar with wave grenade just in case. I don't buy north because of this patent issue just like I don't buy microsoft or apple for that matter. Fifth line was Wipika invention so no you haven't invented it north. Any company wasting excessive resources on patent wars will fall behind sooner or later. Just recently I bought 2013 Park and immediately I fitted it with five lines because it flu like shit on that pulley bridle. Never had a kitemare with five lines either. All high performance kites use five lines. There is nothing better for kite loops direct steering and axial turning. If you want on and off pivotal turning beginner kite go with four lines but don't call yourself a pro. There is no better system to control the kite that flies deep in the window without backstalling too. For anyone kiting inland in gusty wind tricky launches there is no better/safer period.


Hi mate,

It all depends what you want from your kite and what style of kiting you like.
From your statement boosting is not your priority, correct? :wink:

Cheers
Caesar 8)


Last edited by Caesar on Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:59 pm 
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heinzbush wrote:
The German kite magazine measured the pull after releasing... I will only get the magazine in two weeks, but I already heard that the kite with the largest pull was the Dice... I wonder how the 5 liners compared to the 4 liners... I will keep you posted!


That would be great- please let us know. Thank you. :)


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:17 pm 
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I don't fly Naish. I got a good deal on it that's all. I had to put it on five lines to make it work for me. 2013 still flies too much to the edge of the window for onshore waves. Thanks for that little nugget about the patent. :wink: I've been on Airush Vapors until they butchered them changed name and turned to ashes. I thought maybe the new one but no fifth bridle only. I might try it when they go on deep discount and fit it with fifth. Vapors have amazing boost and a bit of a glide too. New five line ckites are the similar these days. Good boost without ability to turn it axially so the kite catches you is for mowing the sky.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:49 pm 
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I have been a fan of Rebels for four years with a full quiver 12, 10, and 7m... Until now.

The five line system does feel more direct then older four-line systems, although I think technology has now caught up.

The inversions that I have experienced over the last three years have cost me considerable amount of time being dragged through the water, as well as safety risk. When I am ocean sailing or in rough chop, I have found it almost impossible to in invert the kite. One for nine so far. If I get dragged to the beach, it is also a safety risk for swimmers. I have been kiting for nearly 10 years, so I don't think experience is the issue.

I have had to replace the centerline for two bars because the bars wear down the line with the metal insert. This is also cost me time and money to replace. I have two friends that report
Breaking. The new four-line kites are just as easy to land now with the new designs. I am in the process of converting...
I would now recommend to friends to not waste their time.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:00 pm 
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jherlong wrote:
I have been a fan of Rebels for four years with a full quiver 12, 10, and 7m... Until now.

The five line system does feel more direct then older four-line systems, although I think technology has now caught up.

The inversions that I have experienced over the last three years have cost me considerable amount of time being dragged through the water, as well as safety risk. When I am ocean sailing or in rough chop, I have found it almost impossible to in invert the kite. One for nine so far. If I get dragged to the beach, it is also a safety risk for swimmers. I have been kiting for nearly 10 years, so I don't think experience is the issue.

I have had to replace the centerline for two bars because the bars wear down the line with the metal insert. This is also cost me time and money to replace. I have two friends that report
Breaking. The new four-line kites are just as easy to land now with the new designs. I am in the process of converting...
I would now recommend to friends to not waste their time.


If you were happy with the Rebels in the past, try a Fuse and let us know what you think (as long as you can get hold of one since production will be discontinued).


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Quote:
That is incorrect info on the 5th line, though I can't blame you for the assumptions, especially considering a misprint on the 2013 Evo... When flown on the 5th Element bar, all of our 4-line kites (Evo, Fuse, Dyno, Neo, and Dice) should have a little slack in the 5th line above the "Y". The 5th line is NOT loaded. It is only for safety and relaunch assistance. I know the 2013 Evo has "loaded 5th line" printed on the LE (and maybe on the bag too) but this was an error in printing. It was supposed to say "4 or 5 line compatible". Also, just to correct a technicality, I believe all 2013 and earlier Evos are considered delta shaped, not bow shaped.


Bow/Delta, all the same, all ghey


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:40 pm 
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JGTR wrote:
Westozzy wrote:
JGTR wrote:
I've been riding 5 line kites for years, they have advantages and disadvantages.

5th line wraps do happen, for me I've a lot of experience with 5 line kites so can get the kite back in the air by turning the kite and sliding the 5th line off buts not 100% guaranteed and will still require a trip back to the beach to re-rig. For a newbie it isn't an easy thing to do. I've never seen a kite cut in half by a 5th line wrap, in fact never seen any evidence online either so I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it's extremely rare - I've seen more kites split from just being crashed than 5th line wraps so I'd be more worried about that than cutting a kite in half with the 5th line!

Advantages.......

A dedicated safety line that flags the kite out without any spins or loops. Also means I can self land my kites precisely without the kite even hitting the floor, good for kiting on busy beaches :thumb: Although you must be aware, recovering a kite flagged onto a 5th line can be extremely hard in high winds - but I'd rather be safe and it take a while to get the kite back than be attached to a spiralling kite or on a mini 5th line rare the kite still flies when released to safety :o

The main advantage of 5th lines is the feel - 4 line kites or bridled kites just do not have the solid feel of 5th line kites, the drive you get through the turns and the solid shape in gusts.

Personally I'd love to fly 4 lines, less to go wrong but yet to fly a 4 line kite that has the feel of a 5 line kite.




On the last point I have found that to except for the Dice. It flies far better on four lines. No difference in canopy shape holding itself together, but way more bottom end and way more responsive.



Maybe, I'll reserve judgement until I get to fly a dice, I take new kite info with a pinch of salt these days as a lot is pimping

Out of interest do u have any affiliation with North??





No I don't. No affiliation, no pimping from me. i rode north gear (well I have ridden lots of brands and kites over the 14 years) then ozone, but this year went to the dice because ozones catalysts to me isn't up to scratch. The dice does everything much better. No its a fact not an opinion, dice flies much better on 4 lines, we tested this through four riders (who all are on dice kites now) and all agreed. Also had input from other demo riders and team riders as well who I hooked up with on the net.

As far pull goes on release for the dice, this has been brought to my attention through a relative novice (one year in) who is currently going back to five lines for the safety reasons mentioned above.


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:55 am 
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Someone emailed me about the jumping ability of the dice so I thought I'd help get that cleared up.

It's no rebel, edge, screamer and all that jazz. Why do I know I have flown al three and owned two of them with many hours on the rebel and edge.

Infact I was watching a rider jump relatively well on the 12m dice and wasn't getting anywhere near the same height or float on my 11 even though I'm 10kg lighter. This guy has ridden C kites a lot and set me right. Next session all sweet. It takes a more C kite jumping approach. Not as drastic but close. Gotta keep power in the kite and send it from lower down than the other three kites mentioned and hardish and stomp that back foot down. Luckily we were in marginal to medium conditions so the test was true, I hate hearing people go on about jumping ability and you find out the kite was in its upper range. They all fly there In the right hands. The float is what suprises me and the others.

So it does jump and the float is the best I've experienced on a kite that fucken rocks in the surf. And like a kite with C you know where it is in flight all the time. Allows for multiple rotations, rolls with loops and mega loops real easy. It also unhookes graciously in the waves.

But it's no rebel, fuse, edge etc etc. You can't go past some aspect for this.

Just a really simple, easy, stable kite to fly but with enough magic and potential for more experienced riders. Especially those like myself who are quickly starting to pull their head in a bit.

And in the surf...... Wow. You drop this kite, you have to be a complete dickhead. So stable so forgiving of your inherent stuff ups. Had it in some serious head high and above stuff as well. First time in a long time I'm gonna get my strapless SB out again for some giggles..


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 Post subject: Re: North Rebel 5th line - any issues?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:43 am 
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+5 what Dan at North says. Dumped my 18 Dyno, 17 LTD and the 2013 17M Dyno in surf. Waves rolling over them etc. 5th line only wrapped once. It slid off to the side as Dan said. I've dumped some Naish 5 line kites also. Never had the 5th line SLICE the Kite.

Guess it's possible.

Also, the Rebel Is one of the hardest kites to fall out of the Sky even w slack lines. You would have to work hard at dumping it. Contrary to what you hear, I have No trouble with the Rebel drifting.

14


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