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is it impossible?

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bnthere
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Re: is it impossible?

Postby bnthere » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:36 am

the point i was making is that because i ask people, i know that:

when they bought their harness the employee didnt mention about the difference between attaching a leash to the ring on the side vs the handle on the back.

or

that in their other lessons they were not advised that above their head is not a "default" safe area to park the kite, particularly when around the beach, and especially when needing to do something (like adjust a harness, or pick up a board off the ground or adjust a footstrap)

they were not informed during their prior experience (s). many times they were informed of the exact opposite of just those 2 things. thats not good.

not to get too specific, but i fairly recently took another certification class, and there was barely any advise to the new instructors about how to go about teaching people how to kiteboard or handle kites with clients in a way that sets a good example for them about how to minimize risks. there was nothing regarding commonly sketchy situations in lessons and how to avoid and deal with them.

i dont think it is entirely up to a certification body to deal with this, although they could probably do a better job than they currently are. in the class i most recently took they did not pass nearly anyone. although there were many responsible minded people there, and good kiters, the examiner assigned all of them x amount of lesson shadowing hours (to be done with any already certified and qualified instructor). apparently that is what they are relying on to teach people how and what to teach. not sure it is actually working well.


i think it is up to the people involved in the biz (retail and lessons) to take a more proactive approach in training their employees. because a lot of people in the biz actually do know what is up, but i don't think it is getting through their employees to the clients.

the reason i posted this is not really to debate why or whatever. its because a lot of people in the biz look at this forum. you know who you are. step it up.

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Re: is it impossible?

Postby Flyfish » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:52 am

I'm 100% with Loco4viento and Toby.
Anyone that's been kiting 10 plus years all knows the simple fact is that it's just too easy now.
Like Toby said. We had to pay attention or we got hurt.
Case in point:
Remember when we'd launch our kites toward the water in case we got yanked so we'd at least be headed toward the water and not toward trucks or something?
Why did we do that? Cause it happened. When we launched, we were scared.
Do you ever find a kiter now even knowing this might be better choice?

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bnthere
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Re: is it impossible?

Postby bnthere » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:46 am

a good example. a basic element of situational awareness right with avoiding obstacles in wind window, wind direction to the shoreline, and identifying potential downwind takeout points. should be mentioned in every intro lesson, and reinforced in follow up sessions.

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Re: is it impossible?

Postby BigPaul » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:13 am

One I've noticed more and more. That on a cross shore breeze people are launching with their kites towards the land rather than the sea. if something goes wrong I would much rather be dragged towards the sea (and the reason I was taught this).

In the UK the sea defence is usually a high concreate wall or a set of sand filled boulders. Not something you would want to hit!

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Re: is it impossible?

Postby JGTR » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:37 am

that in their other lessons they were not advised that above their head is not a "default" safe area to park the kite, particularly when around the beach, and especially when needing to do something (like adjust a harness, or pick up a board off the ground or adjust a footstrap)


When learning kite at 12 is the most stable position for putting board on feet and is also a safety technique as it stops the student from being pulled.

If learning in correct wind conditions and suitable kite size ie under powered kite at 12 is not an issue. It becomes an issue in gusty windy conditions.

Problem is that here in UK 2 days is generally accepted as having done a "course" which is no where near enough, which is why it's important for experienced riders to set an example.

I am a big hypocrite though as I do a lot of things that I shouldn't - altho I keep kite low in mental winds and wear my leash on my side so it easy to get to

My point is that it is the culture and should not be directed at any one group

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Re: is it impossible?

Postby Tiago1973 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:47 pm

around here a zero to hero course takes 10 hours or so & guess this is pretty common around the globe

no school can really expect to put together a proficient rider within this time frame. it´s simply not possible

for the most part is the older crew on the spot that teach those rookies the missing bits

not bashing the schools or the instructors, it´s just the way things are.
Last edited by Tiago1973 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: is it impossible?

Postby Flyfish » Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:34 pm

Tiago1973 wrote:around here a zero to hero course takes 10 hours or so & guess this is pretty common around the globe

no school can really expect to put together a proficient rider within this time frame. it´s simply not possible



That is probably the root of the problem right there.

I'm not around instruction, but I'd bet good money that they spend 1 hour on safety and 9 hours on how to ride.

I don't really get it. Back in the day, we taught ourselves "how to ride". So if it was me that was taking a lesson, I'd want 9 hours of safety, (which is a hell of alot harder to learn) and 1 hour of ridding, then I'll go teach myself the rest.

Not blaming instructors, just saying thier giving the client what they think they want.

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Re: is it impossible?

Postby geopeck » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:59 pm

Hey Toby - you should move this thread to the safety category - lots of good food for thought on here.

Too bad the subject sounds super broad - I figured someone was going to ask if it was possible to do a double kite loop on 50m lines with a helium filled kite.

Here's something I do as an instructor, which is a compromise but still part of due diligence - send people to the safety posts on kiteforum. The wiki is not entirely filled out but still has a lot of the fundamentals, and threads like this are invaluable for the discussion. Someone who can learn through reading can do a good mix of lessons for muscle memory/safety lessons and then re-enforce their lessons online.

It's true that most people can't retain all the safety info from a lesson. I tell people that they are going to make a lot of the exact mistakes that I am describing because there are just far too many things that can happen to remember them all. However, if they are making those mistakes in light to moderate winds, properly rigged and with plenty of room downwind they can learn from them safely rather than have an injury. The process of self teaching isn't just something that happens when a student doesn't want to get raped for lessons anymore, it's going to be happening for life, figuring out new gear, new spots, different conditions etc.

It's not about moving the safety part of the lesson to online, it's more about giving a resource to someone who is dedicated to learning. Some people are not going to take it seriously - I hope they don't get hurt before they move on to a different sport.

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bnthere
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Hood River and the Columbia River Gorge USA
Favorite Beaches: South Padre Island Texas: year round the best flatwater and fall - winter - spring fun wave riding as well.
Style: all styles of kite riding
Gear: Blade
Mystic
WindAlert
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Mystic
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Re: is it impossible?

Postby bnthere » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:17 am

JGTR wrote:
When learning kite at 12 is the most stable position for putting board on feet and is also a safety technique as it stops the student from being pulled.



you should rethink this.

its not exactly that it is wrong, or better or worse or doable or not doable, but:

this kind of thinking undermines a lot of what CURRENT smart kite handling instruction emphasizes.

there are many ways to do things in kiteboarding:

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Re: is it impossible?

Postby sijandy » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:27 am

I always think that looks proper dodgy when you see people standing around on the beach chatting with the kite at 12, especially with breakwaters, beach huts, people etc. As soon as the kites up im heading for the water and normally don't let it get as far as 12. Keep at 45 whilst putting the board on so you get a nice little resistance against the board while you lace up. Unless it's dead clean wind (unlikely by the beach) it tends to f**k about to much at 12 and you can't feel what it's doing.


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