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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:02 am 
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bnthere wrote:
JGTR wrote:
When learning kite at 12 is the most stable position for putting board on feet and is also a safety technique as it stops the student from being pulled.

you should rethink this.

its not exactly that it is wrong, or better or worse or doable or not doable, but:

this kind of thinking undermines a lot of what CURRENT smart kite handling instruction emphasizes.

there are many ways to do things in kiteboarding:

i think there is nothing wrong to hold the depowered kite at 12. it is stable and in sudden gust it pulls you upwards, you are in total control of the quick release.
if you holding your kite at left or at right of you wind gust can pull you off your feet and start dragging you. at that moment QR activation can be complicated and it is only the question of when your kite starts to loop.

it is staying on the beach or near it, chatting or drying the canopy with kite up (at any angle!) is dangerous and stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:22 pm 
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Quote:
this kind of thinking undermines a lot of what CURRENT smart kite handling instruction emphasizes.



Which ones? The BKSA teach kite at 12.

Nothing wrong at all with kite at 12, as mentioned more stable and will not pull you/student away from or towards beach. 99.9% of people have kite at 12 when putting their board on their feet.

Part of the theory is to teach students that in higher winds keeping kite at 12 can cause loftings and to keep kite low during squalls etc ready to release if required.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:45 pm 
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JGTR wrote:
99.9% of people have kite at 12 when putting their board on their feet.

Guess I'm in the 0.1% then - only cos of the mechanics of how I do things.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:15 pm 
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eree wrote:
bnthere wrote:
JGTR wrote:
When learning kite at 12 is the most stable position for putting board on feet and is also a safety technique as it stops the student from being pulled.

you should rethink this.

its not exactly that it is wrong, or better or worse or doable or not doable, but:

this kind of thinking undermines a lot of what CURRENT smart kite handling instruction emphasizes.

there are many ways to do things in kiteboarding:

i think there is nothing wrong to hold the depowered kite at 12. it is stable and in sudden gust it pulls you upwards, you are in total control of the quick release.
if you holding your kite at left or at right of you wind gust can pull you off your feet and start dragging you. at that moment QR activation can be complicated and it is only the question of when your kite starts to loop.


I disagree with this. If you get pulled upward all you have is your weight to hold you back and once you in the air you have no control over where you go, with your kite low and to the side you can hold back much more power then just your weight and if you need to move with the kite downwind or side to side to avoid an object or person you still have limited mobility provided you stay on your feet. Also being dragged would be preferable to being lofted then dropped imho

Quote:
it is staying on the beach or near it, chatting or drying the canopy with kite up (at any angle!) is dangerous and stupid.


I agree with this.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:58 pm 
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interesting right? that it might be possible that the same regurgitated advise that people came up with 10 yrs ago as to what is and isnt a smart way to handle kite gear may not actual be good advise? edit: more like 15 yrs ago at this point.


here is the thing about 2 of those "most basic" situations:

"fly the kite at 12 and put the board on" is not THE way to do, it is A way to do it (an awkward way to do, for a many many people)

"start with the kite a little behind 12, dive it down (like fro 10 to 2), point the board towards the kite and go" is not THE way to get up and ride, it is A way (also an incredibly awkward way, with extremely unspecific instructions and unpredictable results.

bring the kite to 12 after a launch and "make sure it feels alright, etc" is not THE way, it is stupid.


Last edited by bnthere on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:06 pm 
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covering a lot of ground in this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:38 pm 
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bnthere how exactly does one water start? I don't teach so I'm not exactly sure what a beginner is supposed to do.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:06 pm 
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There aren't many situations where kite at 12 is the best place, especially for beginners. How often do you see advanced riders keeping the kite there? I don't see it much but I am usually in a place with clean wind so getting pulled laterally by gusts isn't as much of an issue. In winds gusty enough that you can't keep your footing with the kite at the side of the window you should get the kite down quickly, either assisted or using the QR.

Here is my beef with having a student keep the kite at 12 - it isn't applicable to riding. I want them to get an understanding that, even if they are on the beach, they are "one-sided". That means that hips and shoulders turn towards the kite or angle past it if we are simulating toe-side, the upper hand is doing most of the control and lower hand can optionally be taken off as practice for body dragging. Then the kite can start to become less than 100% of the focus - it eventually will go to something which they are reading in peripheral vision and bar feedback. Kite overhead means the student is looking up at the kite constantly and isn't reading their environment.

Here is another point against 12 for learners - when we fly with a kite at 12 we lean back against it. Learners stand straight up. I try to keep students in a seat harness but if they want to use their own waist harness it will always ride up. Above the bar depower goes out of reach and usable bar throw is less.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:53 pm 
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bnthere wrote:
why are so many people still confused or uneducated about how things work in kiteboarding. it seems impossible to bring everybody up to speed, even about basic things. shop employees and instructors need to step it up. its just sad. here are examples:

considering directly overhead a "good" or better yet "somehow safe" or "recommended" place to fly your kite. - its not.
.

for those in the biz. step it up.


I think you need to have a look closer to home and yourself. Especially regarding being uneducated, confused, add to the mix for yourself ignorant and narrow minded to name a few with a desire to impose your attributes/beliefs on others.

there is always a scenario/situation where one method may be preferable to another so do not limit yourself to one or the other but what works best for the conditions at the time. There is nothing wrong with holding a kite at zenith(yup, that's the term if you are unfamiliar with it) and in cases where the ground is uneven and more turbulent lower down it is preferable to be at zenith if the airflow is smoother. Your request to behave in a manner regardless is ridiculous and naïve to say the least.

Dream up whatever scenario you want but the reality is in your opening post you are demonstrating a complete lack of experience and knowledge.

Irrespective of your ill thought out demands and wishes the first place anyone should seek guidance/advice on the particular kites handling is in its specific manual prior to using it. Add that to your curriculum.

I suspect you have neither "been there, or done it"

Good luck getting your demands met.

Is it possible you can change? And before you lose your rag...that is some opening sentence you have come out with!


Last edited by flyingweasel on Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:56 pm 
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If a beginner is standing on the beach with the kite at 12 and gets plucked they then swing under there kite causing it to frontal/collapse drift downwind then open up in the power zone. Seen it happen on many videos. A better Kiter can usually keep the kite under control. It takes time learning to understand wind and knowing when its ok to stand on a beach with your kite overhead.
This conversation seems kinda funny when I think about what people do snowkiting. They are on land the whole time.jmo


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