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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:57 pm 
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waynepjh wrote:
This conversation seems kinda funny when I think about what people do snowkiting. They are on land the whole time.jmo


dunno about you waynepjh but when I snowkite it is helmet, kneepads, elbow pads, wrist protector and hip pads.

the ground is hard. Maybe if I kited where I had a decent snow cover it would be different.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:06 am 
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geopeck wrote:
There aren't many situations where kite at 12 is the best place, especially for beginners. How often do you see advanced riders keeping the kite there? ......

Here is my beef with having a student keep the kite at 12 - it isn't applicable to riding. I want them to get an understanding that, even if they are on the beach, they are "one-sided". That means that hips and shoulders turn towards the kite or angle past it if we are simulating toe-side, the upper hand is doing most of the control and lower hand can optionally be taken off as practice for body dragging. Then the kite can start to become less than 100% of the focus - it eventually will go to something which they are reading in peripheral vision and bar feedback. Kite overhead means the student is looking up at the kite constantly and isn't reading their environment.

Here is another point against 12 for learners - when we fly with a kite at 12 we lean back against it. Learners stand straight up. I try to keep students in a seat harness but if they want to use their own waist harness it will always ride up. Above the bar depower goes out of reach and usable bar throw is less.


this guy is thinking. that is part of what this thread is about.

the other aspect is people doing a better job of imparting quality knowledge to those purchasing gear: is this a good bar for a person with a short arm reach (small harness loop, maybe below bar trim, a reasonable or adjustable bar throw so as bar isnt a foot out of range when let go, and the opposite for a super tall skinny guy that likes his seat harness, ..... what kind of leash system .... is it 1 line length of 25m that is gonna get flown by a 100lber on a 5 and 7m most of the time, or has it got 17s or 18s with extensions, or has it got 20s without extensions and the 250lber is using it on a 17 half the time .... etc etc) i see mismatches like this a lot, and its gear that is bought new from shops. that can be improved upon with better education and effort.

kiteboarding is evolving. its not that hard of a sport to learn or do but it is legitimately dangerous and does deserve better effort and more thought, which will benefit new riders (and experienced riders).

there are many different ways to use a kite to accomplish the goals (like getting up and riding, or changing direction without stopping, or handling it while putting a board on, or flying it around the beach, whatever.

for example: if you think about ways you might use the kite to get out of the water and take off riding, you know there is more than one way you do it. and that is just one situation.

im not on here to teach lessons, im on here to bitch about shitty service that is happening both in lessons and at shops because people arent thinking or trying hard enough, and i know thats the case because my clientele explains their past experiences to me.

it is nice to see thoughtful input regarding kite handling from other people tho.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:13 am 
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bnthere wrote:
geopeck wrote:
There aren't many situations where kite at 12 is the best place, especially for beginners. How often do you see advanced riders keeping the kite there? ......

Here is my beef with having a student keep the kite at 12 - it isn't applicable to riding. I want them to get an understanding that, even if they are on the beach, they are "one-sided". That means that hips and shoulders turn towards the kite or angle past it if we are simulating toe-side, the upper hand is doing most of the control and lower hand can optionally be taken off as practice for body dragging. Then the kite can start to become less than 100% of the focus - it eventually will go to something which they are reading in peripheral vision and bar feedback. Kite overhead means the student is looking up at the kite constantly and isn't reading their environment.

Here is another point against 12 for learners - when we fly with a kite at 12 we lean back against it. Learners stand straight up. I try to keep students in a seat harness but if they want to use their own waist harness it will always ride up. Above the bar depower goes out of reach and usable bar throw is less.



im not on here to teach lessons, im on here to bitch about shitty service that is happening both in lessons and at shops because people arent thinking or trying hard enough, and i know thats the case because my clientele explains their past experiences to me.

it is nice to see thoughtful input regarding kite handling from other people tho.


Fair enough.

What does an average shop worker get paid these days and their average age. Same for someone giving lessons? I`m not sure the overheads for living out of a van/are that high and the good ones are not in it for the money.

With lessons, are waivers and indemnities signed because that sums the whole business really.
ie. I can`t be held responsible for my mistakes, lack of knowledge etc. Any truly professional training body/establishment etc. does not require these cop outs and is able to stand by its services.

Achievers generally move on in all respects.

You are right to be concerned and bitch about it. From what perspective?


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:15 am 
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its not that hard for this sport to get it together a little better.

i like kiteboarding, it deserves better treatment.


there will always be kooks and pros, but the people that come directly from the "pros" shouldnt still be 100% kooks. a little bit more of the good advise could be (should be) rubbing off, and more of the confusion, misinformation, misguided priorities and understanding, and lack of awareness should be fading away, not holding strong.

im putting it on shop employees and instructors (and on the shop owners and school owners) to make it happen. that is where a lot of peoples info and hands on experience comes from, and more often than not it seems like they are showing up pretty clueless or misguided.

thats all, its a rant thread, not that big a deal. and im not talking to "any random kiter on the forum" im talking to shop owners and school owners and employees that might be reading this. make an effort to address the aspects of equipment selection, possible use options, and kite handling techniques more thoroughly with people that are coming to you for advise or gear.

here is another one: why is a seat harness recommended to a beginner kiter? male, female, fat, skinny, good back, bad back, tall, short, doesnt matter, seat harness is better when your learning right? everyone thinks so .... or do they? who came up with that and why is it so? answer: you dont know, and because someone else told you that back in the day. do you like your seat harness now? probably not. no offense seat harness liking people, harness selection is all about what fits best and is most comfortable. nothing wrong with being comfortable in a seat harness. but why is it recommended to beginners, by default?

there's not a lot of people in this deal for the money. same with paddling, climbing, windsurfing, snowboarding, bikes, pretty much everything cool. doesnt mean they have to suck. people doing something because they are passionate about it you would think would yield pretty good results.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:32 am 
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Quote:
that is where a lot of peoples info and hands on experience comes from, and more often than not it seems like they are showing up pretty clueless or misguided.


Of course they are showing up clueless, they aren't competent kitesurfers. Zero to hero or what ever you call it exists not because schools want to make a quick buck but because of the economics of kitesurfing tuition. Competence in kitesurfing comes with experience and learning to adapt to the conditions, this can not be achieved without going it alone.

The guy who said keeping the kite to one side is better for the student, I agree but during a course it isn't practical to spend most of that with the student fighting the kite trying to keep it to one side while it crashes into the water while getting their board on etc, kite at 12 means the student can get on the water and do more stuff and at the end of the day I have to offer value for money. It would be lovely for all newbies to have weeks and weeks of instruction and learn everything they need to know before they go it alone but in reality that just isn't possible. People can't afford it, people can't get the time off work, tuition has to fit around the weather etc etc.

It does suck because in reality students need alot more tuition than is generaly accepted - the accepted path in the UK is a 2 day course but in reality it needs to be at least 4 days with additional tuition after but I have to do the best I can with the time I have.

It seems that the instructors are getting the blame again when we can only do so much in the time we have - am I supposed to force people to take more lessons, am I supposed to forcibly stop going out on their own when I know they are not ready and I've told them? Or do you expect me to drop my prices so I don't make any money so students can have more tuition????????

Improvements in safety need to come from all areas - YOU yourself say that people turn up clueless-----so what are you doing about it??? (apart from blaming others?)


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:37 am 
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Quote:
here is another one: why is a seat harness recommended to a beginner kiter?


Because its easier, doesn't ride up, brings the control equipment closer to the body, is more comfortable, better suited to keeping the kite high (try to keep student's kites out of the full power zone where possible) safer (!!!) last thing I want is a student with a waist harness up by their arm pits not able to swim/pull their safety or it twisting round so they get dragged backwards.

Becoming a competent kiter is about building up your skills bit by bit. Waist harness promotes better posture and riding position and brings legs into the mix a bit more but there are other areas to work on before progressing to a waist.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:22 pm 
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Oh dear...sounds like the "stoke" is wearing thin with a realisation that its
an each for themselves with the money side. Nothing new there. A bunch of chancers
winging it from top to bottom with image and cut throat a priority. Well thats the
current general motivating force and of course it sets the standard(low). It can only get better, worse or stagnate.

If history has taught anything its that nothing is learnt from history.
I believe the 2014 wheel is even rounder and spins faster!!

Yes, it sucks.


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Sure is a tremendous amount of good information and thoughtful comments in this thread.

To add my 2 cents to a couple of comments:

It is generally a bad idea to allege that any one technique/procedure is ALWAYS preferred or bad because there are so many possible variables that you can almost always find an appropriate contrary situation.

As to having a kite at zenith: One of the main reasons INFLATO people dislike this position is due to the Hindenberging possibilities which can become excessively dangerous as the kite drops the long way to the ground/water. However, it should be noted that this problem is comparatively INSIGNIFICANT for FOILS which tend to just drift back in lulls. In fact there is NO kite in the BALLPARK that has the stability of a Peter Lynn twinskin at zenith, where if there is reasonably decent wind, you could turn a waist harness around and GET LAID (unfortunately, not determined from personal experience).

As to beginners using a SEAT harness rather than a WAIST harness, one of the most critical skills which we try to impart to our students is how to prevent losing their balance because when off balance it becomes exponentially more difficult to control a kite. Since the much lower spreader bar of a seat harness provides much greater stability against the possibility of being pulled face forward and thereby losing balance, we believe it is a usually the best choice. Besides there also being an additional couple of other less important seat advantages which haven’t been mentioned, I’ve never heard of ANY advantages of waist harness for beginners and would like to know of any.

ORIGINAL TOPIC:

As to the actual topic of this thread, ragging on specific industry members as the alleged cause of kiter general retardedness regarding many important subjects, bnthere is overlooking a couple of essential elements and blaming the industry for the consequences of our economic system.

Specifically, everybody must make money and to do so they must stay in business. Since many also want to make a LOT of money and they know that the happier they can make their prospects, the more likely they are to become paying customers, they are willing to misinform and outright lie in order to cater to prospects’ hopes of becoming kiters in a day and pros in 2 weeks.

Back in the day, most prospects would call us because they wanted to learn how to be reasonably safe. Now they call us because they want to learn how to get up and ride and don’t want to hear about safety.

You can’t blame them. 99% of what the INDUSTRY says is that it’s SO EASY and the 1% about possible dangers is buried. Go online and watch videos FROM INDUSTRY SOURCES of people jumping over their girlfriends, piers, boats – of little kids kiting – of people launching and landing upwind and in the middle of crowded beaches etc. and obviously a$$holes like us are just trying to increase their lesson costs by babbling on about safety. Especially if we try to explain that REAL safety is dependant upon their UNDERSTANDING of the many potential factors involved and their potential interactions and not just memorization of some set “rules”.

They then call around until they find some “certified” school (must be good, since they’re “certified”) that says they’ll be up and riding in 1 or 2 “lessons”. They naturally go there and then think that because they spent 2 or 3 hours flying kites on the beach and/or bodydragging before managing to get up a couple of times without dieing that they’re ready for bnthere to teach them how to go upwind.

We have a 2 hour Intro class that’s all lecture, which only hits the highest of the high points of safety and equipment issues etc. for only $60 and most clients DON’T TAKE IT although we almost always recommend it.

Since the client is PAYING, we feel that they have a perfect right to ignore our advice about WHAT they should learn and so long as it is reasonably safe we will teach what they want. Although we won’t omit any safety stuff pertaining to what a client is actually doing during a lesson (but which may not include the actual EXPLANATION which is the most valuable part), if a client wants to concentrate on being able to “get up and ride”, this client leaves without knowing a vast amount of critical knowledge and so this is another “kiter” who ends up at bnthere’s and of whom he speaks.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:11 am 
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I think that's your best post ever, Rick :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: is it impossible?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:57 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
I think that's your best post ever, Rick :lol:


I suspect that you must have a Peter Lynn, a waist harness and a girlfriend with an open mind.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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