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RRD safety system fail

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Tiago1973
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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby Tiago1973 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:35 pm

yeah longwhitecloud, but that was said in a very specific context of making a super aggressive sales bid to place kite into the Olympics

Not saying I agree with it as it was written, but i´m not naïf to believe that half trues are never used by different levels of any organization given the right context. Why IKA would be different that everybody else?

On other hand IKA is not competing with IKO.

IKO is a private company with no power to enforce whatsoever, while IKA is an international class association empowered by ISAF - think there are miles of difference.

In any case things went the way it went & there are good things and bad things. A good thing is to have an organization with enough power to push for some changes linked with the safe aspects of the sport; you didn´t have this before

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby sarc » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:53 pm

William Munney wrote:
BillyGoatGruff wrote:
tony montana wrote:Easy way to check if QR will work under load attach kite to car or jeep in high winds loop kite



... are you for real... :o ... Watch your lines snap or kite rip in half.

The guy that said "not to fly bridal kites" is clueless as well. Bridled kites have been dominating the PKRA for many years now and even won a few :wink: ... What has been described in these posts could happen on all kite desings. There used to be loftings on old 4 line c-kites, bad wraps and inverted 5 line kites, looping 5 line kites, north rebels which would hover mid air and never come down....


Could you elaborate on that last comment? I have Rebels from four different years back to 08 and have never observed this. They don't always drop like a rock on the fifth line but none of them are still flying :-)


Yes I fly 5th line Rebels too and I have set them up so that when I release the QR they hover in mid-air. It's great because they will not get caught in waves and get munched up... or get caught on beach garbage (we have lots of it). The mod is to make the orange line attached to leash 2 m longer and the rest of the 5th 2m shorter (so overall it's the same). This releases all tension from back lines when released and the kite flips on its back and stays there with very little pull.

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby tony montana » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:20 pm

BillyGoatGruff wrote:
tony montana wrote:Easy way to check if QR will work under load attach kite to car or jeep in high winds loop kite



... are you for real... :o ... Watch your lines snap or kite rip in half.

The guy that said "not to fly bridal kites" is clueless as well. Bridled kites have been dominating the PKRA for many years now and even won a few :wink: ... What has been described in these posts could happen on all kite desings. There used to be loftings on old 4 line c-kites, bad wraps and inverted 5 line kites, looping 5 line kites, north rebels which would hover mid air and never come down....

Billy i am a bit of a safety geek since my accident that almost killed me 2 years rehab,need to get hip replacement because of accident,but i can assure you in 30 to 35 knots 2 kite loops 9 meter north rebel,lines will not snap or kite rip in half ,and yes 5 line release, kite some times hovers in mid air but totally De Powered,and about bridled kites which i fly some older one had a crazy amount of bridal,like north rhino,not good maybe this is what Sarc meant,and he never said not to fly bridal kites,he said thats why he wont fly bridal kites.TONY

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby longwhitecloud » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:57 am

"But i´m not naïf to believe that half trues are never used by different levels of any organization given the right context. Why IKA would be different that everybody else?"

There is a problem right there, you are clearly an experienced rider, but most of those reading this document thinking of getting into kiting are not and take what is written as complete truth as do not know any better.

The context was rider safety, it really doesn't get more serious than that. It reflects extremely badly for IKA even more so now they are trying to make inroads towards instruction standards.

This thread is another example of a subject where IKA are very naive and have failed to respond positively to constructive criticism that has been made.

ISAF/ IKA certainly don't have any power to enforce in NZ thankfully and never will have.

Damn my kite is in shreds...

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby Tiago1973 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:56 am

See your point, just we aren´t really aligned on the perceived influence of the document

In any case why are you saying ISAF / IKA are planning to make inroads towards instruction standards?

I miss to catch this and I´m curious to know more...

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby JessicaWinkler » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:31 pm

I'm pretty sure this entire thread is men talking and you guys are normally more "tech geek" about stuff but i'm really not so when a person (no matter how experienced) is put in a situation where they are using a new kite they assume the safety is designed to save them. Honestly I guess I am naive and I assumed there were regulations to building the QR on kites. I can't believe the IKA doesn't have some sort of checking system, especially when the sport is so dangerous. Maybe someone should make a chart of all the kites and rate their safety system so that people like myself who have to teach or ride a kite i've never used before can check....... I would find this very helpful and it would help me to choose whether or not to buy/ride or teach on a particular kite without having to run the risk of an accident like I had last week making me create this post.


longwhitecloud wrote:"But i´m not naïf to believe that half trues are never used by different levels of any organization given the right context. Why IKA would be different that everybody else?"

There is a problem right there, you are clearly an experienced rider, but most of those reading this document thinking of getting into kiting are not and take what is written as complete truth as do not know any better.

The context was rider safety, it really doesn't get more serious than that. It reflects extremely badly for IKA even more so now they are trying to make inroads towards instruction standards.

This thread is another example of a subject where IKA are very naive and have failed to respond positively to constructive criticism that has been made.

ISAF/ IKA certainly don't have any power to enforce in NZ thankfully and never will have.

Damn my kite is in shreds...

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby Laughingman » Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:53 pm

The difference between men and women may have never been so evident before the previous post. I cannot imagine not knowing how things work and what the options are and which are better then the other. It seems crazy to me not to question everything.
I spent two years researching and testing kites for my new quiver, my wife started kiting so we had a lot of safety requirements which I would not have bothered with for myself.

Jessica, as you are an instructor I feel you should know how the kite you are teaching on will release. You should know the difference between a single center line safety, a 2 center line safety, a mini fifth line safety and an outside line safety and how each of these may work with any given kite (at least the ones you are teaching with or using)
The IKA is nothing more then a made up association to regulate racing. It has nothing to do with instruction standards or kite standards outside of racing events. There is no organization that you can rely on to make sure you and your students are safe. This is entirely up to you. So I would get your "tech geek" hat on and do some research before one of your students gets hurt. They are looking to you to know the differences. They are depending on you to make sure they don't get hurt, this is your job no one else.


JessicaWinkler wrote:I'm pretty sure this entire thread is men talking and you guys are normally more "tech geek" about stuff but i'm really not so when a person (no matter how experienced) is put in a situation where they are using a new kite they assume the safety is designed to save them. Honestly I guess I am naive and I assumed there were regulations to building the QR on kites. I can't believe the IKA doesn't have some sort of checking system, especially when the sport is so dangerous. Maybe someone should make a chart of all the kites and rate their safety system so that people like myself who have to teach or ride a kite i've never used before can check....... I would find this very helpful and it would help me to choose whether or not to buy/ride or teach on a particular kite without having to run the risk of an accident like I had last week making me create this post.

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby tony montana » Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:57 pm

Laughingman wrote:The difference between men and women may have never been so evident before the previous post. I cannot imagine not knowing how things work and what the options are and which are better then the other. It seems crazy to me not to question everything.
I spent two years researching and testing kites for my new quiver, my wife started kiting so we had a lot of safety requirements which I would not have bothered with for myself.

Jessica, as you are an instructor I feel you should know how the kite you are teaching on will release. You should know the difference between a single center line safety, a 2 center line safety, a mini fifth line safety and an outside line safety and how each of these may work with any given kite (at least the ones you are teaching with or using)
The IKA is nothing more then a made up association to regulate racing. It has nothing to do with instruction standards or kite standards outside of racing events. There is no organization that you can rely on to make sure you and your students are safe. This is entirely up to you. So I would get your "tech geek" hat on and do some research before one of your students gets hurt. They are looking to you to know the differences. They are depending on you to make sure they don't get hurt, this is your job no one else.


JessicaWinkler wrote:I'm pretty sure this entire thread is men talking and you guys are normally more "tech geek" about stuff but i'm really not so when a person (no matter how experienced) is put in a situation where they are using a new kite they assume the safety is designed to save them. Honestly I guess I am naive and I assumed there were regulations to building the QR on kites. I can't believe the IKA doesn't have some sort of checking system, especially when the sport is so dangerous. Maybe someone should make a chart of all the kites and rate their safety system so that people like myself who have to teach or ride a kite i've never used before can check....... I would find this very helpful and it would help me to choose whether or not to buy/ride or teach on a particular kite without having to run the risk of an accident like I had last week making me create this post.

Jessica i assumed and nearly died,your students your responsibility,get good gear,TONY

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby edt » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:03 pm

Jessica as others have pointed out this is not a failure of the RRD system, this is how a mini-5th line system is supposed to work. A mini-5th line system relies on the bridle to depower the kite so if the bridle is compromised (for instance in a death loop), you are supposed to completely release the kite. So if you have a death loop, first you use the QR, it keeps pulling and then you release the kite completely.

If you want to switch to a single center line flagging system, these will work even if the bridle is compromised or if the kite is in a death loop, but if you notice it death looping you will have to release on one of the first few rotations.

Here's the complete list

2012-2013

Y mini 5th cabrinha north best airush epic switch gk core ocean rodeo

single center line flag out: ozone slingshot liquid force wainman blade naish

2014

best, epic and cabrinha will be using single center line flag out for the main control bar for 2014

In regards to safety regulations in regards to manufacture there are none to speak of, there's some kind of french regulation about releasing under load but they don't test things like will it depower in a death loop.

The good news is that compared to 5 or 10 years ago kites, control boards are all much safer than they used to be, and kite manufacturers are continuing to improve the safety of their control bars.

I don't think a mini-5th line is necessarily less safe than a single line flagging system, but you have to understand that if the kite gets a wingtip bridle wrap (or sometimes a rear line snap) and deathloops the proper response is to completely release the kite.

With a single center line flagging system you can use just the primary QR and it will flag out even if it's in a death loop but you MUST release within the first three loops. If you don't release in time, the flag out gets tangled so you have to completely release the kite anyway.

Students have to be more willing to completely release the kite, that's true whether or not it's a mini-5th or single center flagging system.
Last edited by edt on Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby Laughingman » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:07 pm

2014 Epic bar releases to a single center line

Edit to add more
Single Center Line
2013 Airrush Smart Bar can be converted to a mini fifth.
2012 Zeeko Ultimate Bar is single center line flag

theres more I will update as I think of them
Last edited by Laughingman on Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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