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RRD safety system fail

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edt
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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby edt » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:08 pm

Laughingman wrote:2014 Epic bar releases to a single center line


tks laughingman, i'm gonna go back and edit my previous reponse to add it to the 2014 list of single line flaggers

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby ronnie » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:38 pm

edt wrote:Jessica as others have pointed out this is not a failure of the RRD system, this is how a mini-5th line system is supposed to work. A mini-5th line system relies on the bridle to depower the kite so if the bridle is compromised (for instance in a death loop), you are supposed to completely release the kite. So if you have a death loop, first you use the QR, it keeps pulling and then you release the kite completely.

If you want to switch to a single center line flagging system, these will work even if the bridle is compromised or if the kite is in a death loop, but if you notice it death looping you will have to release on one of the first few rotations.

Here's the complete list

2012-2013

Y mini 5th cabrinha north best airush epic switch gk core ocean rodeo

single center line flag out: ozone slingshot liquid force wainman blade naish

2014

best, epic and cabrinha will be using single center line flag out for the main control bar for 2014

In regards to safety regulations in regards to manufacture there are none to speak of, there's some kind of french regulation about releasing under load but they don't test things like will it depower in a death loop.

The good news is that compared to 5 or 10 years ago kites, control boards are all much safer than they used to be, and kite manufacturers are continuing to improve the safety of their control bars.

I don't think a mini-5th line is necessarily less safe than a single line flagging system, but you have to understand that if the kite gets a wingtip bridle wrap (or sometimes a rear line snap) and deathloops the proper response is to completely release the kite.

With a single center line flagging system you can use just the primary QR and it will flag out even if it's in a death loop but you MUST release within the first three loops. If you don't release in time, the flag out gets tangled so you have to completely release the kite anyway.

Students have to be more willing to completely release the kite, that's true whether or not it's a mini-5th or single center flagging system.


Good post, but the bit about 'this is the way a mini 5th system is supposed to work'.

One incident Jessica reported was a broken rear line.
The other wasn't certain but may have been a rear line tangled on a bar end.
In both those cases a good mini 5th system if deployed early enough should depower the kite to very close to the same as a 5th line.
It sounds to me like it either wasn't deployed early enough or it doesn't depower enough.
There is variation in kites as to whether the mini 5th depowers pretty much like a 5th or depowers much less than that.

You are right that if the bridle is compromised then what you say is correct.

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby longwhitecloud » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:56 am

France is the only country I know of with safety standards and that is just for quick releases as far as I know - force required under load to release - mind you F- one are french and they have had one of the most utterly shit quick releases for years in regards to easy access in a hurry - and their kites most certainly go into death loops - my friend probably saved someones (bandit) live on one getting dragged into a rock pile with a bridle tangle.

what this forum is most useful for - info with less chance of conflicts of interest

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby tony montana » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:12 am

edt wrote:Jessica as others have pointed out this is not a failure of the RRD system, this is how a mini-5th line system is supposed to work. A mini-5th line system relies on the bridle to depower the kite so if the bridle is compromised (for instance in a death loop), you are supposed to completely release the kite. So if you have a death loop, first you use the QR, it keeps pulling and then you release the kite completely.

If you want to switch to a single center line flagging system, these will work even if the bridle is compromised or if the kite is in a death loop, but if you notice it death looping you will have to release on one of the first few rotations.

Here's the complete list

2012-2013

Y mini 5th cabrinha north best airush epic switch gk core ocean rodeo

single center line flag out: ozone slingshot liquid force wainman blade naish

2014

best, epic and cabrinha will be using single center line flag out for the main control bar for 2014

In regards to safety regulations in regards to manufacture there are none to speak of, there's some kind of french regulation about releasing under load but they don't test things like will it depower in a death loop.

The good news is that compared to 5 or 10 years ago kites, control boards are all much safer than they used to be, and kite manufacturers are continuing to improve the safety of their control bars.

I don't think a mini-5th line is necessarily less safe than a single line flagging system, but you have to understand that if the kite gets a wingtip bridle wrap (or sometimes a rear line snap) and deathloops the proper response is to completely release the kite.

With a single center line flagging system you can use just the primary QR and it will flag out even if it's in a death loop but you MUST release within the first three loops. If you don't release in time, the flag out gets tangled so you have to completely release the kite anyway.

Students have to be more willing to completely release the kite, that's true whether or not it's a mini-5th or single center flagging system.

Great post edt.so for schools would a single centre line flag out be safer.TONY

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby bnthere » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:03 pm

not my first post about this:

i do believe based on experience that a single centerline more effectively disables a kite than any other leash system (and it can be used on any and every kite, ever). (for the 5line people: a 5th line is a single centerline system, but it is not necessary to use an additional 5th line for the sole purpose of having a re-rideable kite disabling leash system, a center flying line is equally effective).

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby bnthere » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:29 pm

JessicaWinkler wrote: ..... a situation where they are using a new kite they assume the safety is designed to save them. Honestly I guess I am naive and I assumed there were regulations to building the QR on kites. I can't believe the IKA doesn't have some sort of checking system, especially when the sport is so dangerous. Maybe someone should make a chart of all the kites and rate their safety system so that people like myself who have to teach or ride a kite i've never used before can check....... I would find this very helpful and it would help me to choose whether or not to buy/ride or teach on a particular kite without having to run the risk of an accident like I had last week making me create this post.



your not talking about KITES. you are talking about CONTROL BARS and LEASH SYSTEMS.

kites and bars are different, and unrelated pieces of gear. realizing that is important. brands might have you believe otherwise at this point, but that is the truth. most kites and bars are interchangeable, some leash systems will bring down any kite, ever, (single centerline) some may not (single outside line, and double centerline) and should only be used on the kites they are designed for, and may be questionably effective anyways.

i put single outside line in there because in high winds some kites spiral so violently that that even though they are flagged out they can't really be considered disabled.

what you want is a chart / list of bars, as others have now posted.

i know that sounds petty and annoying, but it is an important distinction to make.

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby tony montana » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:01 pm

bnthere wrote:not my first post about this:

i do believe based on experience that a single centerline more effectively disables a kite than any other leash system (and it can be used on any and every kite, ever). (for the 5line people: a 5th line is a single centerline system, but it is not necessary to use an additional 5th line for the sole purpose of having a re-rideable kite disabling leash system, a center flying line is equally effective).

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http://www.prokitesouthpadre.com

I agree,single centerline and QR that works then kites will be safer and lives will be saved,thanks for post,TONY

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby RichardM » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:09 pm

JessicaWinkler wrote:Thank you for your comments on this topic, it is very helpful to me. You make a good point that in 30 - 40 knots things are different and that is why i'm concerned with these RRD kites. I will be using them to teach in these crazy high winds over the next couple months and I want to make sure I understand them & take every precaution. It is VERY scary.

haiku wrote:Hi. I use kites of all brands and among them RRD kites (Obsession, Addiction and Religion). Everytime I fly for the first time a new kite I check the QR on the beach (in this case bar V4 and V5). All seemed to work properly but when things go really wrong is a totally different matter; the death loop traction is something very hard to deal with and I've experienced myself a crazy situation like that with a Cabrinha kite (broken line...). In that case I released first the QR and after that I pulled the second security on the harness loop, letting the kite go (I was alone in the water...). All worked fine and later I was able to recover the kite (Cab Switchblade 2011). This system with a double security (four lines..) and others with the fifth line seem to be the best. Back to RRD kites I've never pulled the security in a dangerous situation and what has been reported in this topic scares me like hell because with the Religion 6 I've had some wave sessions in big waves and 34/40 Knots :o ! Noticed that during a wave session I always connect the QR leash near the harness hook so I can let the kite go......but in this case seems not enough! Said that I hope RRD distributors or athlets add to this discussion some important contributions and advices. Safety first: going out with a QR that doesn't work in a emergency situation looks like playing the russian roulette!
Cheers
Carlo

I would be interested to know what technique(s) enable teaching in 30-40 knot winds such that it is reasonably safe and the student learns anything worthwhile.

JessicaWinkler wrote:I'm pretty sure this entire thread is men talking and you guys are normally more "tech geek" about stuff but i'm really not so when a person (no matter how experienced) is put in a situation where they are using a new kite they assume the safety is designed to save them. Honestly I guess I am naive and I assumed there were regulations to building the QR on kites. I can't believe the IKA doesn't have some sort of checking system, especially when the sport is so dangerous. Maybe someone should make a chart of all the kites and rate their safety system so that people like myself who have to teach or ride a kite i've never used before can check....... I would find this very helpful and it would help me to choose whether or not to buy/ride or teach on a particular kite without having to run the risk of an accident like I had last week making me create this post.


longwhitecloud wrote:"But i´m not naïf to believe that half trues are never used by different levels of any organization given the right context. Why IKA would be different that everybody else?"

There is a problem right there, you are clearly an experienced rider, but most of those reading this document thinking of getting into kiting are not and take what is written as complete truth as do not know any better.

The context was rider safety, it really doesn't get more serious than that. It reflects extremely badly for IKA even more so now they are trying to make inroads towards instruction standards.

This thread is another example of a subject where IKA are very naive and have failed to respond positively to constructive criticism that has been made.

ISAF/ IKA certainly don't have any power to enforce in NZ thankfully and never will have.

Damn my kite is in shreds...


You have hit upon one of my pet peeves – specifically, KITERS ASSUMING THAT THE EQUIPMENT WILL SAVE THEM by working as it theoretically is SUPPOSED to.

First, many manufacturers, shops and schools exaggerate the effectiveness of their systems. At the very least, they virtually NEVER disclose the typical situations where their systems may fail, either catastrophically or to some lesser extent. Even without equipment failure, ALL systems have been known to fail under certain circumstances.

Second, ALL systems can be expected to fail either catastrophically or to some lesser extent when some element breaks.

Third, I have lost track of the number of times that I have heard, or said, “I didn’t know that could happen” after an accident or close call. The point being that NOBODY knows ALL the ways that a particular system may fail. Even the manufacturers don’t know because every change that they make, no matter how minute, may combine with some unknowable combination of other factors in some vast number of possible situations which, even if they were known, are too numerous to thoroughly test before bringing to market.

It seems to me that the best way to minimize the danger associated with the above unavoidable situation is to always expect the system to fail. If this approach is taken, it means that it is usually better to avoid situations which depend extensively on the equipment working properly to be reasonably safe. An example of this would be the self launching technique of rolling the kite over significantly downwind (as opposed to launching closer to the side) and depending on the depowability hopefully available on most kites by pushing the bar away. It also means that ONLY extremely experienced kiters should consider dealing with 30-40 knot winds regardless of how user friendly the location may be.


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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby BillyGoatGruff » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:13 pm

anyone know why RRD went from a single centre flag out on the 2009/10 global bar to the double centre line 2011 onwards ? And also no "ohshit" hadles after 2012 ..... they seem to be going backwards in design..

p.s You can easily rig up a single centre line flag out by buying a Naish, ozone or mutiny centre spinner and running a line through the centre of the bar...would take 10mins to rig any kite up to a centre flag out.

RRD must have tested the double centre flag out and have confidence in it. This centre flag out has been used on lots of brands... Best, Cabrinha.... ect...

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Re: RRD safety system fail

Postby tony montana » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:21 pm

BillyGoatGruff wrote:
tony montana wrote:Easy way to check if QR will work under load attach kite to car or jeep in high winds loop kite



... are you for real... :o ... Watch your lines snap or kite rip in half.

The guy that said "not to fly bridal kites" is clueless as well. Bridled kites have been dominating the PKRA for many years now and even won a few :wink: ... What has been described in these posts could happen on all kite desings. There used to be loftings on old 4 line c-kites, bad wraps and inverted 5 line kites, looping 5 line kites, north rebels which would hover mid air and never come down....

Billy when i finished that test i tied kite line ends to tow hitch on jeep i attached 4 25kg plates to chicken loop and pulled around beach both north and naish qr worked,so i then repeated with old kite line attached to release and got my friend in back of jeep while i was pulling 100 kg the line my friend had was attached to travel scales while pulling north released 7kg naish 8.5 kg,the reason this test was carried out was to simulate a kiter being dragged up the beach,that why i never heard
or read on any forum of north or naish QR failure the designers should be doing these tests not me,how clueless is that,and thats why i fly north and naish.TONY


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