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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:27 am 
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Location: Sandy Lane, Barbados
I feel I need to defend myself against your message here. I have always taught on Epic or Cabrinha kites. I have rode many other brands in all sorts of conditions such as Liquid Force, Slingshot, North & Ozone. I have NEVER had a situation happen like this before. I am being VERY honest on here because I do want to learn more "tech" stuff so please don't criticise me. Is this not the point of this forum?

Sometimes when you travel a lot and find yourself teaching for a school randomly you don't know which equipment they use until you are unpacking it for the student. 99% of the time everything is ok but with this RRD bar it was not. Perhaps you have never been in this situation but a lot of people are. It does not make them poor instructors.

Quote from Laughingman
(Jessica, as you are an instructor I feel you should know how the kite you are teaching on will release. You should know the difference between a single center line safety, a 2 center line safety, a mini fifth line safety and an outside line safety and how each of these may work with any given kite (at least the ones you are teaching with or using)
The IKA is nothing more then a made up association to regulate racing. It has nothing to do with instruction standards or kite standards outside of racing events. There is no organization that you can rely on to make sure you and your students are safe. This is entirely up to you. So I would get your "tech geek" hat on and do some research before one of your students gets hurt. They are looking to you to know the differences. They are depending on you to make sure they don't get hurt, this is your job no one else.)


Last edited by JessicaWinkler on Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:09 am 
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Posts: 211
You owe it to yourself to kite any equipment a school is asking you to teach on before you teach a lesson on it. Even if it ins't every kite or size, you should become familiar with the systems. If you were just handed some used RRD kites by your manager and told to go teach, well you are taking a gamble.

Some comments were not constructive for what you sought whether they were right or wrong. As far as teaching in 30 knots, yes it is possible to do safely with a small kite on short lines, at least as a intro class with possibly some waterstart attempts, but not beyond that. More than 25-30 knots working with people just getting up and riding is a sketchy situation.. Think about when you reached that point and how many crashes and inverts you may have had, then imagine all that happening in 30 knots.

My first lesson was 40-50 mph gusting to 55 and it was 52 F water, and 50 F. Had a 3.5 meter convert, on 7 meter lines. Fastest I've ever seen a kite move but it helped a lot, I had to think faster than most beginner lessons going out in 20 mph. Learned body draggin and board dragging upwind and did a few water starts on a 179 litewave.

My suggestion if you continue to teach in winds around 30 knots, get to know the Obsession, or use a more beginner friendly kite like the passion or an epic renegade, cabrinha convert.

RRD Obsession is not "never ever" friendly, meaning ultra beginner, but lessons with someone who rides them a lot can mitigate that. I would be comfortable teaching on my 15 down to my 5 meter but I've been riding it exclusively for 2 years.
Keep your head up Jessica, lots of people make the mistake of taking kites out they aren't used to, be it a school's or student's.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:58 am 
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Location: Islamorada, Florida Keys
edt wrote:
Jessica as others have pointed out this is not a failure of the RRD system, this is how a mini-5th line system is supposed to work. A mini-5th line system relies on the bridle to depower the kite so if the bridle is compromised (for instance in a death loop), you are supposed to completely release the kite. So if you have a death loop, first you use the QR, it keeps pulling and then you release the kite completely.

If you want to switch to a single center line flagging system, these will work even if the bridle is compromised or if the kite is in a death loop, but if you notice it death looping you will have to release on one of the first few rotations.

Here's the complete list

2012-2013

Y mini 5th cabrinha north best airush epic switch gk core ocean rodeo

single center line flag out: ozone slingshot liquid force wainman blade naish

2014

best, epic and cabrinha will be using single center line flag out for the main control bar for 2014

In regards to safety regulations in regards to manufacture there are none to speak of, there's some kind of french regulation about releasing under load but they don't test things like will it depower in a death loop.

The good news is that compared to 5 or 10 years ago kites, control boards are all much safer than they used to be, and kite manufacturers are continuing to improve the safety of their control bars.

I don't think a mini-5th line is necessarily less safe than a single line flagging system, but you have to understand that if the kite gets a wingtip bridle wrap (or sometimes a rear line snap) and deathloops the proper response is to completely release the kite.

With a single center line flagging system you can use just the primary QR and it will flag out even if it's in a death loop but you MUST release within the first three loops. If you don't release in time, the flag out gets tangled so you have to completely release the kite anyway.

Students have to be more willing to completely release the kite, that's true whether or not it's a mini-5th or single center flagging system.


Proof that not everyone knows what safety system is on every kite. Cabrinha is not a mini 5th but is rigged kind of like a high depower suicide and is released to 2 front lines similar to a single center line safety (IDS) but very hard to relaunch once released. Airush has been a single front line safety since 2013. Nearly identical to Slingshot.

The schools I work with have always used Slingshot bars with single center line safety systems only on all kites no matter the brand including Cabrinha. This year we also started using Airush bars as they are to our standards. True mini 5th line safety systems are NOT good for any reason and I have seen way too many accidents involving mini 5th bars.

Also I have never seen a single front line safety system not work after 3 loops and a few spins in the lines. This statement (IMO) is false. I have never had this system fail since it was releaseed many years ago except for a bungee extension line breaking once on a bad drift launch.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:19 am 
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I've been happy with the Cabrinha IDS system as a safety system on my 2 Xbows because they do depower well on the IDS as long as there isn't some other factor introduced. The IDS works well on the Xbows for drift launching and self-landing where I want to kite.

Not all kites in the Cabrinha range depower in the same way with the same safety system. To work properly the IDS depends on the bridle and pulleys but also crucially on the shape of the leading edge of the kite.
So you cant just talk about a safety system and make of kite but how that safety system works with each individual kite.

You can see in this video at 33 seconds, he pulls the IDS line and then lets it go when the kite touches the ground. That is to make the kite depower properly by dropping on its back without him having to walk towards it to make it do so. At 1:53 he has to walk toward the Nomad kite to get it to drop on its back. This is equivalent to having to swim toward the kite faster than the kite will drift when the whole of the kite is presented to the wind. In anything over light wind you are probably not going to be able to swim fast enough to do that and you are probably going to have to let the kite go in an emergency.



I think this is why Cabrinha changed to single front line flagging. IDS works OK if the shape of the kite suits it but when you change the shape of the leading edge for a different performance, the IDS may not function the same. IDS works fine on my Xbows because they have that curved bow shape LE.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 170
Buy a Mystic spreader with relase KSR


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:35 pm
Posts: 1550
Location: Southwestern Ontario
noel wrote:
edt wrote:
Jessica as others have pointed out this is not a failure of the RRD system, this is how a mini-5th line system is supposed to work. A mini-5th line system relies on the bridle to depower the kite so if the bridle is compromised (for instance in a death loop), you are supposed to completely release the kite. So if you have a death loop, first you use the QR, it keeps pulling and then you release the kite completely.

If you want to switch to a single center line flagging system, these will work even if the bridle is compromised or if the kite is in a death loop, but if you notice it death looping you will have to release on one of the first few rotations.

Here's the complete list

2012-2013

Y mini 5th cabrinha north best airush epic switch gk core ocean rodeo

single center line flag out: ozone slingshot liquid force wainman blade naish

2014

best, epic and cabrinha will be using single center line flag out for the main control bar for 2014

In regards to safety regulations in regards to manufacture there are none to speak of, there's some kind of french regulation about releasing under load but they don't test things like will it depower in a death loop.

The good news is that compared to 5 or 10 years ago kites, control boards are all much safer than they used to be, and kite manufacturers are continuing to improve the safety of their control bars.

I don't think a mini-5th line is necessarily less safe than a single line flagging system, but you have to understand that if the kite gets a wingtip bridle wrap (or sometimes a rear line snap) and deathloops the proper response is to completely release the kite.

With a single center line flagging system you can use just the primary QR and it will flag out even if it's in a death loop but you MUST release within the first three loops. If you don't release in time, the flag out gets tangled so you have to completely release the kite anyway.

Students have to be more willing to completely release the kite, that's true whether or not it's a mini-5th or single center flagging system.


Proof that not everyone knows what safety system is on every kite. Cabrinha is not a mini 5th but is rigged kind of like a high depower suicide and is released to 2 front lines similar to a single center line safety (IDS) but very hard to relaunch once released. Airush has been a single front line safety since 2013. Nearly identical to Slingshot.

The schools I work with have always used Slingshot bars with single center line safety systems only on all kites no matter the brand including Cabrinha. This year we also started using Airush bars as they are to our standards. True mini 5th line safety systems are NOT good for any reason and I have seen way too many accidents involving mini 5th bars.

Also I have never seen a single front line safety system not work after 3 loops and a few spins in the lines. This statement (IMO) is false. I have never had this system fail since it was releaseed many years ago except for a bungee extension line breaking once on a bad drift launch.


You may want to read up on the 2014 Cabrinha bar before you state things that are simply incorrect. This bar releases to a single front line in 2014.
High mini 5th two front lines in 2013

Here is the info page and a video

http://www.cabrinhakites.com/controlsystem/overdrive-1x.html

This system is extremely easy to relaunch after its been released.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:25 pm 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
tks noel it's hard to keep track of all the bars, didn't realize airush switched from mini-5 in 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:28 pm 
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ronnie wrote:
I think this is why Cabrinha changed to single front line flagging.


cabrinha has said the reason they changed is that mini-5th line enforces a kite design restraint that they want to be free


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
JessicaWinkler wrote:
I feel I need to defend myself against your message here. I have always taught on Epic or Cabrinha kites. I have rode many other brands in all sorts of conditions such as Liquid Force, Slingshot, North & Ozone. I have NEVER had a situation happen like this before. I am being VERY honest on here because I do want to learn more "tech" stuff so please don't criticize me. Is this not the point of this forum?

Sometimes when you travel a lot and find yourself teaching for a school randomly you don't know which equipment they use until you are unpacking it for the student. 99% of the time everything is ok but with this RRD bar it was not. Perhaps you have never been in this situation but a lot of people are. It does not make them poor instructors.

Quote from Laughingman
(Jessica, as you are an instructor I feel you should know how the kite you are teaching on will release. You should know the difference between a single center line safety, a 2 center line safety, a mini fifth line safety and an outside line safety and how each of these may work with any given kite (at least the ones you are teaching with or using)
The IKA is nothing more then a made up association to regulate racing. It has nothing to do with instruction standards or kite standards outside of racing events. There is no organization that you can rely on to make sure you and your students are safe. This is entirely up to you. So I would get your "tech geek" hat on and do some research before one of your students gets hurt. They are looking to you to know the differences. They are depending on you to make sure they don't get hurt, this is your job no one else.)



Jessica, I did not criticize you, I stated my opinion which is based on my experience, an opinion which I believe you agree with since you are striving to learn more "tech stuff". Seems you realize there may be a void in what you know due to the experience you started this thread on.
Sharing experience and knowledge is exactly what the forum is for. I am sorry if what I posted is hard to take but I don't think you can find fault in what I expect of an instructor and it is very obvious that you are naive to expect that a safety system works just like the last one you used.

I would be concerned if my instructor did not know the difference between safety systems... if this is generally excepted in the world of schools and instructors we have a very big problem indeed.

I am very happy that you are showing interest in these things you need to know. I hope that you will share this experience with other instructors so that they can learn from this as well.

Sincerely
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
edt wrote:
tks noel it's hard to keep track of all the bars, didn't realize airush switched from mini-5 in 2013.



I think it is actually convertible, I saw instructions to set it up either using a mini fifth or a single center line


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