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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:40 pm 
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I never said the 2014 wasn't a single front line safety but the IDS is not a mini 5th. It releases to 2 front lines as the bar rides way up to the kite. Last years Epic and most (but not all) North bars are mini 5th. From what you are stating, all kites that get hooked up suicide are mini 5th. Also after using, teaching and selling Cabrinha for years, it is very difficult to reassemble the IDS safely on the water. That is why very few try to do it.

Maybe I didn't clearly state the year of the kites mentioned but from the previous post, it should have been a no brainier for you.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:
edt wrote:
tks noel it's hard to keep track of all the bars, didn't realize airush switched from mini-5 in 2013.



I think it is actually convertible, I saw instructions to set it up either using a mini fifth or a single center line


All bars are convertible to a mini 5th.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:06 pm 
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noel wrote:
I never said the 2014 wasn't a single front line safety but the IDS is not a mini 5th. It releases to 2 front lines as the bar rides way up to the kite. Last years Epic and most (but not all) North bars are mini 5th. From what you are stating, all kites that get hooked up suicide are mini 5th. Also after using, teaching and selling Cabrinha for years, it is very difficult to reassemble the IDS safely on the water. That is why very few try to do it.

Maybe I didn't clearly state the year of the kites mentioned but from the previous post, it should have been a no brainier for you.


Fair enough, I misunderstood the intended message.

but isn't the IDS the same as a mini fifth but with a longer fifth line? It still releases to two front lines and without the Cabrinha bridals designed to work with it, the kite still doesn't depower. Used the IDS system with my Epic kites for a few months till I was able to buy the 2014 bars and it does not kill the power very well at all.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:07 pm 
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noel wrote:
Laughingman wrote:
edt wrote:
tks noel it's hard to keep track of all the bars, didn't realize airush switched from mini-5 in 2013.



I think it is actually convertible, I saw instructions to set it up either using a mini fifth or a single center line


All bars are convertible to a mini 5th.


True but Airush is selling this as a feature so its worth noting


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:10 pm 
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For full flagging you need about 10 meters throw on a single line. The cabrinha bar rides up about 3 meters, but it still relies on the bridle to flip the kite on its back. Cabrinha is going away from IDS because they want to get away from the bridle constraints of a mini-5th line system. It's only different from other 5th line systems in how far the bar shoots up, cabrinha seems to go up the most at 3 meters, others only have 1 or 2 meter throw but otherwise it is identical to all the other mini-5th line systems.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:24 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:

True but Airush is selling this as a feature so its worth noting


I will have to check in to that but no where on the Airush website (that I could find) does it mention what your stateing.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:40 pm 
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edt wrote:
For full flagging you need about 10 meters throw on a single line. The cabrinha bar rides up about 3 meters, but it still relies on the bridle to flip the kite on its back. Cabrinha is going away from IDS because they want to get away from the bridle constraints of a mini-5th line system. It's only different from other 5th line systems in how far the bar shoots up, cabrinha seems to go up the most at 3 meters, others only have 1 or 2 meter throw but otherwise it is identical to all the other mini-5th line systems.


I understand what you are saying but a mini 5th connects to the "Y" above the bar. When you release or let go of the bar, the kite leans (depowers) forward to the point of falling out of the sky. But the kite is still flying. If you release your QR, the mini 5th does the exact same thing as if you just let go of the bar.

Cabrihna doesn't do that at all. You are attached via the C-loop and not a mini 5th line. If you let go of the bar, you are basically hooked suicide and the kite does the same by leaning forward and falling out of the sky but if you release the QR, the bar slides up @ 10 meters and depowers the kite completely falling out of the sky similar to a normal 5th line but on 2 lines.

It seems from what you are saying is that if you just hook all kites to the C-loop like Cabrihna, then there is no need for that extra mini 5th line. Cab doesn't have that extra mini 5th line.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:58 pm 
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noel wrote:
It seems from what you are saying is that if you just hook all kites to the C-loop like Cabrihna, then there is no need for that extra mini 5th line. Cab doesn't have that extra mini 5th line.


Noel, I read this three times and can not understand your point. Liquid force is a single line center line flag system, the chicken loop remains on the spreader bar but the bar shoots up, north is a mini-5th line, the chicken loop is released from the spreader bar and the bar shoots up. Where the chicken loop goes has nothing to do with how the kite is released to the primary quick release. The best redline system has a safety line just like the cabrinha ids both work the same way both have the bar shoot up, except the best bar doesn't go as far that's the only functional difference between cabrinha and best.

Maybe if you can draw some pictures?


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:20 pm 
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Maybe get the definition of 'mini 5th' straight.... I think thats the reason for the argument you're having...

To me a mini 5th is a safety line thats not direcly connected to the kite (like a real 5th, or a single line system), but to the front line split, regardless of length.

So by that definition, Cabrinha is mini 5th. Doesn't really matter where the leash connection is. The Cab CL is like a extra piece between the mini 5th and the leash connector ring. In stead of releasing just the loop like most manufacturers, you release the main depower line. Effect is the same, bar+back lines shoot up to the split.


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 Post subject: Re: RRD safety system fail
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Faxie wrote:
Maybe get the definition of 'mini 5th' straight.... I think thats the reason for the argument you're having....


mini-5th creates slack on the two rear lines, tension on the two center lines, and relies on the bridle to depower the kite. It requires a working bridle designed for mini-5th to work properly. so for instance if you use a cabrinha IDS on a fuel 4 line C kite and pull the primary QR, the C kite will fly all day on the center lines.

a single center line flagging system releases the tension on 3 of the 4 lines and allows the kite to flap in the wind. If you use a single line center system on a fuel 4 line C kite the kite will spin like crazy and fall to the ground.

There are two ways to make a mini-5th line system. One way is to create a ridiculously long throw, like the ocean rodeo bar, I think it has 3 meters of throw. The other way is to have a line that passes up to the Y split, and release to that. This is the system that best and cabrinha use. As far as the kite is concerned it can't tell the difference between an ocean rodeo rider letting go of the bar and a cabrinha rider pulling the IDS. For the mini-5th line systems I think only Ocean Rodeo uses this super long throw everyone else has some kind of IDS or best redline system.

Actually you can ride a lot of the single center line flagging systems as a mini-5th system if instead of leashing to the normal flag out system, you leash instead to the trim rope knob. So for instance you can leash to the end of the liquid force trim knob, and if you release do it, the chicken line will pull all the way out, I know a lot of people locally that like to ride this way because reride is easier.


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