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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:25 pm 
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I guess it depends on how much you weigh, but at that much wind at the low end I'd be on a 10m or 9m to begin with which would make it easier to handle those gusts. When I'm riding along and the gusts hit, I sheet out as far as I can and dig in my back heel to help slow me down a bit and edge hard. It helps.

Worse case scenario 'release'


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
I think you should have both hands on the bar when it is being launched. The hand can move somewhere between half an inch and an inch per millisecond, and the distance between the bar and the QR is about 6 inches, so we are talking something like 10-20 milliseconds. A typical muscle memory reaction takes 250 milliseconds. So a trained kiter with one hand on the QR vs one trained kiter with two hands on the bar you are talking the difference between 250 and 260 milliseconds. It's just not significant. What is significant is whether or not it is a trained response. An untrained response to hit the QR will take somewhere around 2 or 3 seconds (usually longer but assume it is someone with good training but no muscle memory to activate the QR). It's not like having your hand on the QR will give you muscle memory on how to activate the QR. You have to train the response. The reason I like both hands on the bar when it's being launched is you have better feedback from the kite and you are more likely to notice if the kite is being "funky" for want of a better word. It won't feel right and you can hit the QR before it actually loops. It's a lot harder to feel the kite with just one hand. But either way one hand on the bar two hands on the bar it's not as important as training the muscle memory to activate the QR. That's what you really need.

Launching with one hand on the bar is no excuse to quit training to throw a QR.


Last edited by edt on Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:31 pm 
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This does not make sense - the "one hand on the release when thumbs up, to save seconds" :o

In order to give thumbs up, you have to take either the hand on the QR away (thus the advantage is somewhat lost), or you have to let fully go of the bar, which is even worse :roll:

I only got two hands - I dont know about you ?

Having only one hand on the bar, typically the upper one, is also quite dangerous, as you can easily whip the kite into the powerzone.

So agree, that two hands is better, like Thor says.

Have seen some really ugly accidents happen, when relative new kitesurfers hold the bar with one hand instinctively, and let go with the other - thus you make a kiteloop or fly straight into the powerzone :(
Either you hold on with both hands, or let go with both hands - NEVER hold with one hand only, as when shit hits the fan because of a pilot error, you are really in deep shit :x

Of course, when experienced you can control better with one hand - but the errors made is often when not paying attention or the less experienced.

Thus I am not a fan for "one hand launches" in general.

Difficult, as one hand on the QR is faster, yes, but not possible either if you have to give thumbs up :-?

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:37 pm 
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Obviously you would remove your hand off the safety to give thumbs up and then replace it. Your hand will be on the safety before the kite is let lose.

If the kiter is not yet skilled enough to control a kite well with one hand then they have no business launching on land or launching period.
imho

also re: trained response, if you have both hands on the bar and the kite reacts in a way in which you did not give input your instinct may be to try and recover instead of releasing, having one hand free will promote doing what she has been trained to do which is to release when the kite reacts without that given input.


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:
if you have both hands on the bar your instinct will be to try and recover instead of releasing, having one hand free will promote doing what she has been trained to do.


I think if you have one hand on the QR and the kite starts to loop the instinctive response is to let go of the QR and grab the bar to better control the kite. I know people who launch with one hand on the bar, that's what they do when the kite starts to act funky. The instinct is to try to get better control of the kite something you can't do with just one hand. Then after they have both hands on the bar they finally realize they can't control it and now they hit the QR. It's only natural to want to fly the kite, that's what we do we fly kites. If you start with one hand on the bar one on the QR, you are adding an additional step that kiters instinctively do to get better control of the kite.

But if you have two hands on the kite to start with and you can't control it, the instinct is to throw the bar away and hit the QR. With just one hand on the bar the feeling is "Maybe the reason I can't control the kite is because it is gusty let me try harder with both hands." With two hands on the bar the feeling is "I can't control it with both hands, something is whack I'm hitting the safety."


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Seaplus - thank you for your honest reply to my question, im sure youve got it down now and wont think twice :) Just out of curiousity what kind of flag system do you have ? Front 2 lines or single line... I got caught out once in a cross onshore squall while kite was 3/4 way down to be landed on a sand june beach - as soon as i felt it.. Bang went the QR, in that split second i was 5 foot in the air (knarly squall 50 knots) spun backwards, yes my supid fault for not attaching leash to front. And then dragged 30 ft till kite flew into sand dune on the flagged front 2 lines and friends jumped on it.. as i went to stand up, my surfboard then comes flying at my head nearly breaking my jaw - total Smackdown :(
I learnt from that scary shit - never use a 2 line flag out bar ever again, it doesnt stop pulling you as its gliding to the side of the window !!!! Ultimately 30 seconds earlier to beach, it would not have happened. Now im at least 20 mins earlier and board behind kite that im sitting on :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:17 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ontario
edt wrote:
Laughingman wrote:
if you have both hands on the bar your instinct will be to try and recover instead of releasing, having one hand free will promote doing what she has been trained to do.


I think if you have one hand on the QR and the kite starts to loop the instinctive response is to let go of the QR and grab the bar to better control the kite. I know people who launch with one hand on the bar, that's what they do when the kite starts to act funky. The instinct is to try to get better control of the kite something you can't do with just one hand. Then after they have both hands on the bar they finally realize they can't control it and now they hit the QR. It's only natural to want to fly the kite, that's what we do we fly kites. If you start with one hand on the bar one on the QR, you are adding an additional step that kiters instinctively do to get better control of the kite.

But if you have two hands on the kite to start with and you can't control it, the instinct is to throw the bar away and hit the QR. With just one hand on the bar the feeling is "Maybe the reason I can't control the kite is because it is gusty let me try harder with both hands." With two hands on the bar the feeling is "I can't control it with both hands, something is whack I'm hitting the safety."


I think we have come to a point where we will have to agree to disagree. I respect both Peter and Edt for your opinion and experience but still feel that I have a valid point and method of doing things. I hope I never prove them wrong, or right or vis versa since either way would be bad news for someone. In retrospect, considering this is the only point of concern with my "non-professional" instruction method I feel confident we have shed some light and awareness of how things should be done. Even just considering the options may save someone from an accident.
Thanks
Sincerely
Pete


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:17 am 
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Laughingman wrote:
Obviously you would remove your hand off the safety to give thumbs up and then replace it. Your hand will be on the safety before the kite is let lose.

If the kiter is not yet skilled enough to control a kite well with one hand then they have no business launching on land or launching period.
imho

...


If the wind is Gusty, or anything over 20Kt's , my hand is ON the QR before
the person launching me, has the chance to let-go, ( or Well on the way to that QR) .
Personally, i never seen a person quick enough to let go of my kite
before i get my hand back on the QR after giving the thumb's-up.

This strategy has saved my butt at least once a year; sometimes more.
It insures me, that pulling the QR will be my First option if things go Bad ;
I do NOT have to think about any other option

With your hand in the Center of the bar, it should be Easy to control your
kite, even in strong winds. If your kite isn't easy to control with one hand, then
you may want to consider getting another brand of kite. I use an Ozone Edge
and can control it with one hand in winds up to 35Kt +.
Seriously --- How do you even walk into the water with your board, if Ya can't control
your kite one handed ?

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:18 am 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
...

Having only one hand on the bar, typically the upper one, is also quite dangerous, as you can easily whip the kite into the powerzone.
...

8) Peter


The ONLY way that can happen, is if you are grabbing the bar with your
hand on the End of the bar next to the back line attachment point, instead
of holding the bar in the Center.

Here's a question for Ya :
where is your hand located on your bar, while your giving the thumb's-up ; in
the center, or near the end ?
Be careful here, it "Is" a trick question !!

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:00 am 
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As a medium response I just reach up and grab the center lines at the swivel and pull in. When I rode 5th line kites I got pretty good grabbing at using 5th line the same way. Also makes hot relaunches easier.


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