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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:18 am 
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pj sofine wrote:
As a medium response I just reach up and grab the center lines at the swivel and pull in. ...


Yea -- me also ; i was asking Peter because of what he said here, and
was wondering what happens when he or anyone, gives there thumb's-up ?

Peter_Frank wrote:
...

Having only one hand on the bar, typically the upper one, is also quite dangerous, as you can easily whip the kite into the powerzone.

So agree, that two hands is better, like Thor says.

Have seen some really ugly accidents happen, when relative new kitesurfers hold the bar with one hand instinctively, and let go with the other - thus you make a kiteloop or fly straight into the powerzone :(
Either you hold on with both hands, or let go with both hands - NEVER hold with one hand only, as when shit hits the fan because of a pilot error, you are really in deep shit :x

Of course, when experienced you can control better with one hand - but the errors made is often when not paying attention or the less experienced.

Thus I am not a fan for "one hand launches" in general.

Difficult, as one hand on the QR is faster, yes, but not possible either if you have to give thumbs up :-?

8) Peter


The way I think is if your hand is on the center of the bar, and your other hand
is on the QR, then when you give your GO signal, tha hand gos Back to the QR
as fast as you can get it there, thus eliminating any other option if things go Bad.

Bille


Last edited by Bille on Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:20 am 
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a lot of emphasis on releasing the loop and letting the kite disable onto the leash which is correct, and for some reason you didnt opt for, but prior to that: at what point did you let go of the bar? let it all the way out or let go of it (as was mentioned by a few others already), if that amount of depower does not have the desired effect, disable the kite onto the leash system.

thats basic stuff right there. no offense but that should be pretty engrained (just as much as all aspects of basic kite handling).


how often do you disable the kite onto the leash system? probably not much. i think you should, a lot. it is not hard to disable and reset a kite, you should be comfortable with it, and good at.

might be something to practice. the leash system is there for a reason: to disable your kite. its not just for emergency, it is also how you land it on you own.


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:23 am 
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I'm, "Open Minded" ; if there's a Better way , then i will Change My way
of doing things.

There will NOT be time to slid my hand to the center of the bar if the other
hand is headed to the QR in an emergency ; the kite will go into a Loop
the same time the QR is activated, but what if the QR hangs up for a second ?

Some releases don't work in light winds ; mine won't work if the lines
are twisted more than twice from a looping kite.

Bille


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:51 am 
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bnthere wrote:
a lot of emphasis on releasing the loop and letting the kite disable onto the leash which is correct, and for some reason you didnt opt for, but prior to that: at what point did you let go of the bar? let it all the way out or let go of it (as was mentioned by a few others already), if that amount of depower does not have the desired effect, disable the kite onto the leash system.

snip.


Ideally, shouldn't the bar be all the way out during the whole launch? I launch Rebels depowered and with the bar pushed out. If you have a kite that can't be steered with the bar pushed out that would not be an option. Of course, hanging on if the kite is yanking you is going to make you sheet in the bar, so I can see letting go to avoid that, but by the time it goes that bad you should be punching out, releasing the chicken loop.


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:22 am 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
Bille wrote:
...............
Peter_Frank wrote:
...

Having only one hand on the bar, typically the upper one, is also quite dangerous, as you can easily whip the kite into the powerzone.

So agree, that two hands is better, like Thor says.

Have seen some really ugly accidents happen, when relative new kitesurfers hold the bar with one hand instinctively, and let go with the other - thus you make a kiteloop or fly straight into the powerzone :(
Either you hold on with both hands, or let go with both hands - NEVER hold with one hand only, as when shit hits the fan because of a pilot error, you are really in deep shit :x

Of course, when experienced you can control better with one hand - but the errors made is often when not paying attention or the less experienced.

Thus I am not a fan for "one hand launches" in general.

Difficult, as one hand on the QR is faster, yes, but not possible either if you have to give thumbs up :-?

8) Peter


The way I think is if your hand is on the center of the bar, and your other hand
is on the QR, then when you give your GO signal, tha hand gos Back to the QR
as fast as you can get it there, thus eliminating any other option if things go Bad.

Bille


As edt succinctly explained, for someone who has practiced using their QR to the point where they can activate it in the shortest amount of time, and who is specifically prepared to do so as in a launch situation, keeping one hand on the QR would probably save an insignificant fraction of a second in the event of a problem.

Personally, I agree with Peter, Thor etc. in that I believe that having 2 hands on the bar usually provides significantly more control than one hand and that the advantage that this potential control provides generally overcomes any disadvantage that might accrue due to the above described lost fraction of a second.

I have a personal bias against depending on equipment any more than necessary and it seems to me that the 1 hand technique puts more reliance for preventing an accident on the functionality of the QR while the 2 hand technique puts more reliance on kite control while still having the benefit of the QR as backup. Since NO QR can be GUARANTEED to work as intended when needed, it seems better to not depend upon it more than absolutely necessary. I also don't have a lot of confidence that people won't sometimes remove their hand from the quick release when they shouldn't.

However, it should be noted that some people with some kites can exert more kite control holding the bar in the center than other people with different kites (especially where greater bar pressure is found) so the degree of difference between the 2 methods can vary from case to case.

Bille wrote:
*
I'm, "Open Minded" ; if there's a Better way , then i will Change My way
of doing things.

There will NOT be time to slid my hand to the center of the bar if the other
hand is headed to the QR in an emergency ; the kite will go into a Loop
the same time the QR is activated, but what if the QR hangs up for a second ?

Some releases don't work in light winds ; mine won't work if the lines
are twisted more than twice from a looping kite.

Bille


This is reprint from one of my posts from 2008:
Start copy:
"Although our advice is geared toward conditions found in southern California and especially the Los Angeles and Ventura counties area, at Malibu Kitesurfing, when discussing this subject with beginner students during their kiteboarding lessons, we usually tell them:

A couple of other tips which may be helpful include:

1. In an emergency (your kite is out of control or you're sure it's going to be out of control) and you've decide to activate your quick release, use 2 HANDS to activate it. The idea is to MAKE SURE you activate it as quickly as possible. This way if the primary hand is knocked away or misses the release, the other is right there to take its place.

2. Practice finding the quick release by sliding your hands down the chicken loop line (main line) to the quick release while looking up at the kite (or at least away from the release).

Depending on how you're being dragged, the chicken loop may not be in its usual position and simply reaching down may not immediately find the chicken loop and quick release. Additionally, contact with the ground and/or water will have a tendency to pull your hand away.

The main line will always take your hand to the chicken loop and its quick release. It may also help keep your hand from being pulled away. Practice activating with both hands separately and together.

3. Make sure you can activate it with either hand. You never know, one hand may be tied to your leg or broken or your shoulder may be dislocated etc.

4. A potential problem with all quick releases that work at the chicken loop is that if you are getting dragged, especially over nasty stuff like rocks and/or debris (and maybe bounced), it may be difficult to get your hand under you to activate your release.

You may find that it is better to ROLL OVER on your back to MAKE SURE that you can activate it immediately. Being on your back eliminates the problems described above and allows you to see what you're doing.

However, there is a significant problem to rolling onto your back. As you probably know or have gathered from many of the posts, it often takes a substantial effort of will to force yourself to let go of the bar (which has to be done for the quick release to work). Unfortunately, you will find that it takes an exponentially GREATER amount of will power to additionally force yourself to STOP LOOKING at the bad thing (rock jetty, lifeguard tower, etc) that you're heading toward and you must do this in order to roll over. Like practicing forcing yourself to let go of the bar, it is easier to overcome the hesitation you might face by practicing rolling over a couple of times.

When you have very light wind, a large empty sandy area and preferably a friend or instructor to possibly help you, try lying down and getting your kite going enough so that you are being dragged. See what is involved to get your hand under you. You will find that it can be a lot different than simply standing on the beach and pulling your release. Try rolling over and activating your quick release.

As always when kiting, you should wear a helmet for this procedure and if possible, an impact vest. A full length wet suit is also advisable.

5. Try to determine the situations that may cause your quick release to fail. Some are better than others and although knowing the potential problems doesn't necessarily prevent them, awareness might lead you to some corrective solution or at least faster response to some plan B should an anticipated failure occur.

The most important thing to try to determine is what could make any of the moving parts jam up and not move. For example, if your quick release activates by pushing away from you and you are being dragged forward, could sand or debris be forced into it and prevent it from sliding forward? If you have to pull back towards you to activate, would your stomach be in the way if you were bent over the chicken loop? These are by no means all the possible ways a release can fail. You need to examine yours."
END copy

Bille:
Because yours “won't work if the lines are twisted more than twice from a looping kite.”, I suggest you get a backup release. I believe that Mystic now sells a spreader bar QR.

As to the OP, I agree with others who explained that better attention and FASTER response to the changing conditions is the best SOLUTION and also agree with those who pointed out that the best RESPONSE is to activate the safety as far from shore as necessary for a decent buffer or immediately if being pulled towards the shore.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


Last edited by RichardM on Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:43 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:59 pm
Posts: 139
Location: Homer Ak
Back to the QR reflex question - even if the reflex is well ingrained, there still has to be a reasoned decision to use the reflex. That reasoning can get muddied in a bunch of ways.

First, you're kind of fighting to get the whole program together and ride - that's your goal and using the QR is taking you the other way. It means you won't be riding for at least a few minutes and maybe much longer. Snowkiting is a big help in figuring out that you don't have to have a great session every time you gear up, drive out, rig up - some days it just isn't going to happen.

Second, like in the OPs example, you can be totally surprised by the need to use it and not recognize the danger. He was in significant danger with only seconds to recognize it (although like someone mentioned, there may have been some warning signs he missed.) No downwind buffer is a fundamental sign of a time to be more ready. Or shallow water. Or kite losing pressure. Start recognizing that it going to be a possiblity.

And then there is the financial side - even if you think that you are likely to be hitting your QR momentarily you might think about just where your $800 paper thin inflatable wing is going to crash into the ground. It's hard to ignore this factor - you have to ignore it but it's still kind of there. But the wing is cheap compared to hospital bills or worse, not being able to ride.


Actually, the real point of my post is that it's just such a great sensation when you do use a QR - not the sensation of having the QR or bar ripped out of your hands because you can't let go quick enough, but the sensation of doing yourself a huge favor. All that fear, all that fight to get to where someone can land you or to wait out the gusts- it all disappears as soon as you decide to engage the reflex. It's just "Fuck it - in one second I'm going to be a guy standing here in the wind instead of a guy fighting a huge beast." It just feels great to make that call on the responsible side- anyone know what I mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:56 am 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
geopeck wrote:
Back to the QR reflex question - even if the reflex is well ingrained, there still has to be a reasoned decision to use the reflex. That reasoning can get muddied in a bunch of ways.

First, you're kind of fighting to get the whole program together and ride - that's your goal and using the QR is taking you the other way. It means you won't be riding for at least a few minutes and maybe much longer. Snowkiting is a big help in figuring out that you don't have to have a great session every time you gear up, drive out, rig up - some days it just isn't going to happen.

Second, like in the OPs example, you can be totally surprised by the need to use it and not recognize the danger. He was in significant danger with only seconds to recognize it (although like someone mentioned, there may have been some warning signs he missed.) No downwind buffer is a fundamental sign of a time to be more ready. Or shallow water. Or kite losing pressure. Start recognizing that it going to be a possiblity.

And then there is the financial side - even if you think that you are likely to be hitting your QR momentarily you might think about just where your $800 paper thin inflatable wing is going to crash into the ground. It's hard to ignore this factor - you have to ignore it but it's still kind of there. But the wing is cheap compared to hospital bills or worse, not being able to ride.


Actually, the real point of my post is that it's just such a great sensation when you do use a QR - not the sensation of having the QR or bar ripped out of your hands because you can't let go quick enough, but the sensation of doing yourself a huge favor. All that fear, all that fight to get to where someone can land you or to wait out the gusts- it all disappears as soon as you decide to engage the reflex. It's just "Fuck it - in one second I'm going to be a guy standing here in the wind instead of a guy fighting a huge beast." It just feels great to make that call on the responsible side- anyone know what I mean?


Great post.
No downwind buffer is a fundamental sign of a time to be more ready. Or shallow water. Or kite losing pressure. Start recognizing that it going to be a possiblity.

This is the most basic and important concept and was overlooked by everyone, including me. Which is not to say that the rest doesn't present excellent points as well.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:05 am 
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Single like fully flagging leashes are the most reliable system, mini 5th/ front 2line / secondary depower (ie if relase depower 1m longer) - all complete rubbish in a situation like this.

I am going to be another advocate of release 100m out in water when shit hits the fan - used to always be the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:41 am 
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Location: The Naki
seaplus wrote:
Setting:
Winds: 16 knots, steady, onshore
Beach: Hard-packed sand, gravel, and head-sized stones, some twigs and small stumps. No trees or bystanders...just another kite-bud and myself.

Scenario:
Kiting parallel and close to the shore on a fully-powered 12m kite and wind cranks from steady 16k to 26k. No time to depower and skidding towards shoreline fast.

What would you do?

This situation happened to me not once but twice last week! Both times sucked and I don’t know if there is a good way to recover .


The first time I basically just rode onto the beach resulting in the board coming to a sudden stop, I boosted out of the straps and landed on my bum, skidded across the beach on my ass and back until I regained control of the kite.

The second time, I sheeted-in and kicked off my board and floated onto the beach. I landed hard and tumbled to a stop while kite crashed down-wind in the wind window.


Ok back to the original request.

How far and deep where you.?

26 knots is windy by still potentially controllable on a 12.

As others had said. Pull the safety. But there other techniques to use that may have prevented the death run in the first place.

1) Know what the weather is doing and what it could do. Check several forecast models and live weather readings. 10 knot wind increases don't magically happen on an otherwise sunny day that predicts stable winds. You say it happened twice in one week. What that tells me is you are not reading/predicting the weather correctly.

2) The correct kite selection. The correct kite for a 16-26 knot day for me is a 10m size.

In my opinion incorrectly predicting the weather and selecting the wrong kite is the biggest killer in this sport.

Ok so your on the water on a potentially gusty day and the wind strength increases dramatically. what to do.

First you know is that type of day so you give yourself a bit of distance to the beach.

* You can ride down wind to loose power in the kite (wont work if its onshore and your too close to the beach).
* Butt check. Drop your arse into the water and slow down. Pretty lame.
*Go slow. When over powered speed is not your friend. Don't get to much board speed.
* keep the kite low. REAL low. Bar out and Edge like a mother F#$ker and churn upwind.
* My personal favourite. Going super fast and over powered. If you have room down wind just send it for a jump. Do an awesome jump hold the kite back so it slows you down and redirect late so you land going slowly. Ah yeah.
* fly the kite into the water at the edge of the powerzone.

But in truth all of that is moot if you select the correct kite to begin wind


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 Post subject: Re: Sudden boost in winds...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Don Monnot wrote:
I haven't hit my release in over 4 years.


I can relate
In 14 years of kiteboarding / kitesurfing 175-200 days a year...the reason to release was...
....to separate myself completely from my kite that ended up in the strong surf..so it would not rip

Never had to hit release to land kite....self land that is...i let people catch my kite when they offer

Always come in way before it is too late.....when danger is emminent
Always have an exit plan before i go out
Always rig the smallest kite that i can self land when stormy conditions are nearby or predicted

I learned the sport when there was no QR system and i still approach the sport as if i had none

I know how the release work and i do check on a regular basis that it is fully operational

If my life is ever in danger i will not hesitate a millisecond to hit it :wink:


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