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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:42 pm 
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noel wrote:
RichardM wrote:

That said, I have a particular dislike for the MANY systems where the safety leash line must pass through one, or sometimes more than one, small holes, thereby creating a comparatively tight fit. In these cases, any increase in line diameter such as where 2 lines may be connected, may bind in the hole when there is not significant force .


You mean like Peter Lynn?


Please notice that I SPECIFICALLY did not name any particular brand. This is because I'm only personally familiar with a small percentage of the total systems and not all systems from a manufacturer will have the same elements.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:00 pm 
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edt wrote:
RichardM wrote:
the MANY systems where the safety leash line must pass through one, or sometimes more than one, small holes, thereby creating a comparatively tight fit. In these cases, any increase in line diameter such as where 2 lines may be connected, may bind in the hole when there is not significant force involved


Richard which safety systems do not have the flag out line go through a hole that's how the single line flagging system works, you have the 1.75mm kite line, the 2 or 3 mm flagging line and a 2mm or so big hole or swivel or stopper ball that the line goes through, naish, ozone, slingshot, liquid force, wainman and the rest of them, or you have a mini 5th line system where the "redline" whatever you call it goes through the system like the 2013 bars from best north or cabrinha here the tolerances can be a bit bigger, as the mini-5th is lark's headed to the swivel system at the top and then only needs to fit the the holes and tubes but it's not that large, somewhere between 2mm and 4mm. Or you can use a 5th line system it won't be troubled by seaweed much. But of the 4 line systems that's how they work they have to go through little holes.


Some systems are substantially different from others. If you have a 2mm difference in diameter between 2 holes, this could represent an almost 100% difference or some may have MULTIPLE choke points. Additionally, there are older systems and I believe about 70 manufacturers. Furthermore, even if EVERY ONE used exactly the same system, this would in NO WAY excuse an unnecessary design flaw.

When discussing the potential problems associated with the failure of a moving part due to becoming jammed, it might also be noted that several OTHER factors can come into play as well. In the case of the safety line moving through choke points, one consideration might be the LENGTH of line which must pass through the choke point because the longer said length is, the more opportunity exists for a problem to develop.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Update

No wind here today but walked out my lines to check equal length, jams etc. I did notice the Center lines were twisted and I spun the chicken loop release and straightened the lines. I then pulled the QR1 and it travelled much farther up the line but as the video showed I had to walk it up the line to get the full travel.

May have been a combination of light wind, a few twists and onshore winds that combined to not give me the room to walk towards the kite to fully activate the system. As I was practicing with my safety system I didn't want the kite up on the beach among shells unless absolutely necessary.

I was expecting the kite to fully flag like my previous kites which did not occur.

I will test again and report back. Thanks for the input.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:08 pm 
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RichardM wrote:
In the case of the safety line moving through choke points, one consideration might be the LENGTH of line which must pass through the choke point because the longer said length is, the more opportunity exists for a problem to develop.


The longer the line either redline mini 5th or single line flagging, the safer it is. for a single line flagging system you need wingtip distance to safely flag a kite. If you set the distance shorter than normal, say 8 meters instead of the more normal 10 meters, on a light wind kite you can cause a flag out failure because the distance is too short. On a redline mini 5th system like a 2013 cabrinha or best, if the redline is too short for a kite it might have a bit of tension on the rear lines and never flip into the "U" position and completely depower. The over riding consideration here is the safety of the control bar, and this means the longer length of line is going to be safer that's just how the control bars work.

Shorter length of line thru the control system is one indication that the bar might not be safe with all types of kites.

I thought you had in mind a specific control bar, I am familiar with most of the control bars out there, which is why I didn't understand your criticism of the small holes the safety system lines have to pass through -- except for 5 line bars they all have this particular limitation.

Most of the older control bars were awful they learned a lot in the last ten years about safety. But nearly all of the modern bars especially 2013 are very good.

Larry if you don't like the way the cabrinha bar works you can always use your old bar if you want, it should be fine to use a single center line flagging bar on a cabrinha kite.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:35 pm 
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edt wrote:
RichardM wrote:
In the case of the safety line moving through choke points, one consideration might be the LENGTH of line which must pass through the choke point because the longer said length is, the more opportunity exists for a problem to develop.


The longer the line either redline mini 5th or single line flagging, the safer it is. for a single line flagging system you need wingtip distance to safely flag a kite. If you set the distance shorter than normal, say 8 meters instead of the more normal 10 meters, on a light wind kite you can cause a flag out failure because the distance is too short. On a redline mini 5th system like a 2013 cabrinha or best, if the redline is too short for a kite it might have a bit of tension on the rear lines and never flip into the "U" position and completely depower. The over riding consideration here is the safety of the control bar, and this means the longer length of line is going to be safer that's just how the control bars work.

Shorter length of line thru the control system is one indication that the bar might not be safe with all types of kites.

I thought you had in mind a specific control bar, I am familiar with most of the control bars out there, which is why I didn't understand your criticism of the small holes the safety system lines have to pass through -- except for 5 line bars they all have this particular limitation.

Most of the older control bars were awful they learned a lot in the last ten years about safety. But nearly all of the modern bars especially 2013 are very good.

Larry if you don't like the way the cabrinha bar works you can always use your old bar if you want, it should be fine to use a single center line flagging bar on a cabrinha kite.


Obviously, the line must travel the distance that is required for the kite to reach its designed amount of depower.

Whether or not a particular bar or safety system is "awful" or "good" is a personal and subjective choice which depends on the importance which a particular individual puts upon the various factors involved. For example, I personally think that the simplicity of many older systems, including some where the leash line passed through ONLY ONE LARGE RING is a distinct advantage in many regards.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:53 pm 
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RichardM wrote:
For example, I personally think that the simplicity of many older systems, including some where the leash line passed through ONLY ONE LARGE RING is a distinct advantage in many regards.


Leashing to an oh shit is fine for launching or landing but it's no good once you are out riding because you can't rotate the bar because it will foul the leash and disable the safety. I actually have disabled all the oh shit controls on all my bars because when the velcro wears out the stainless steel ring comes out and it's a mess.

Compared to the history of kiteboarding, control bars are very safe in 2013, and they look to be even better in 2014.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:13 am 
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edt wrote:
RichardM wrote:
For example, I personally think that the simplicity of many older systems, including some where the leash line passed through ONLY ONE LARGE RING is a distinct advantage in many regards.


Leashing to an oh shit is fine for launching or landing but it's no good once you are out riding because you can't rotate the bar because it will foul the leash and disable the safety. I actually have disabled all the oh shit controls on all my bars because when the velcro wears out the stainless steel ring comes out and it's a mess.

Compared to the history of kiteboarding, control bars are very safe in 2013, and they look to be even better in 2014.


my oh shit handles on my Ocean Rodeo bar would break free from there velcro hold at times and make a mess like you mentioned. To remedy this I made some little velcro loops to reinforce the hold they had on themselfs. Important that they had just enough hold to keep things neat but easily break loose when needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:49 am 
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Twists... toldja :) only takes a few for it bind - unspin with the unspinning tool!

noel wrote:
You mean like Peter Lynn?

Wot? The Peter Lynn Centrix QR/CL on the Navigator bars has the biggest hole for the safety line that I've seen on a through-the-body safety... well, compares to the Airush, North, Slingshot, Switch, Flysurfer Infinity 1 and 2 parts.

I think only the OR Freeride bar has a bigger hole - but that's cos it uses the depower rope as the "5th line" :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:30 am 
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Kamikuza wrote:
Twists... toldja :) only takes a few for it bind - unspin with the unspinning tool!

noel wrote:
You mean like Peter Lynn?

Wot? The Peter Lynn Centrix QR/CL on the Navigator bars has the biggest hole for the safety line that I've seen on a through-the-body safety... well, compares to the Airush, North, Slingshot, Switch, Flysurfer Infinity 1 and 2 parts.

I think only the OR Freeride bar has a bigger hole - but that's cos it uses the depower rope as the "5th line" :lol:


I think edt already answered but just for you. Most if not all safety lines go thru 2 or more small holes in the bar and/or safety including Peter Lynn. (which is the brand Richard uses) So what if you think the holes are the biggest on the PL. Not the point and not gonna repeat everything edt said previously.

I don't believe Richard is here to help anyone but loves to stir the pot.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with IDS deploying on cabrinha switchblade 2013
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:43 am 
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noel wrote:
Kamikuza wrote:
Twists... toldja :) only takes a few for it bind - unspin with the unspinning tool!

noel wrote:
You mean like Peter Lynn?

Wot? The Peter Lynn Centrix QR/CL on the Navigator bars has the biggest hole for the safety line that I've seen on a through-the-body safety... well, compares to the Airush, North, Slingshot, Switch, Flysurfer Infinity 1 and 2 parts.

I think only the OR Freeride bar has a bigger hole - but that's cos it uses the depower rope as the "5th line" :lol:


I think edt already answered but just for you. Most if not all safety lines go thru 2 or more small holes in the bar and/or safety including Peter Lynn. (which is the brand Richard uses) So what if you think the holes are the biggest on the PL. Not the point and not gonna repeat everything edt said previously.

I don't believe Richard is here to help anyone but loves to stir the pot.

Ah, I see - you weren't saying that the PL bar has very small holes, but you were actually having a dig at the gear RickM uses. Gotcha :thumb:


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