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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:09 am 
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thx for your contributions already..

Yeah, for sure, has always made interesting reading. I am going to make my data open source (all details), i am not going to sell it. People can do their own statistical analysis of it.

Anyone wants to contribute, especially other languages/countries would be cool. Really interested in last 5 years, especially last 2, but anything might help.

I will put a bit of time in and start making a database to start with fatalities AND critical injuries.

fatal/critical injury type - Country - location - experience - event - conditions- date - source

We are all grown up enough to know that driving a car to the beach is more dangerous, and that risk is part of the fun, but I think ultimately this will educate especially about simple knowledge that reduces risk that is not really even associated with the fun part.

Things like events requiring common sense buffer zones (facilities). This will never be a problem if you have clued up experienced riders involved though.


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:16 am 
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Well why not, if you could get at least a quantitative handle on these causes it may provide an indication of what can be focussed on to at least minimise the possibilities. In the end though, shit does happen now and then regardless of procedural efficiencies.

Even after this long at it I still now and then make some really stupid decisions....and it only take one of these to hurt or end your life.


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:25 am 
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get hold of Ricki on this forum. He already has a database of most fatalities.

I'd like to add that gusty and changing conditions contribute to almost all deaths. As does the incorrect kite selection for the elevated or gusty conditions.

From my memory most accidents happen in the 20-30 knot range with a usually story of "he was flying a 12m and then the wind increased and he was overpowered".

I think the single biggest factor that kills the most kiters is knowledge of the weather and wind patterns. People miss read the conditions or don't do enough research or do not understand the potential dangers of those conditions and put up the wrong kite for the conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:53 am 
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longwhitecloud wrote:
snip

We are all grown up enough to know that driving a car to the beach is more dangerous, snip.



I don't think we have the numbers to actually compare, but I do not believe this for a minute. This is like saying more people get hurt bicycling than skydiving.


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:14 pm 
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If there is any positive news it would be that unlike in 2009 when we lost 23 in one year, deaths in the last few years appear to have been substantially lower. We can hope the trend may last and work to that end as always but it may not. Also, if you are the one getting killed, or your friend, that trend isn't important. Another very important factor is that for each fatality, there may have been on the order of 50 severe accidents which were survived worldwide with similar causes and means of avoidance. Tragically, there is a good deal of repetition in many of the main contributing factors or causes in severe accidents over the years and up to the present day. You can read over many of them in a forum Toby setup for me on here.

http://www.kiteforum.com/viewforum.php?f=131

I encourage kiters to read through these posts as there is a lot of hard won information there.

If I had to summarize some of the main factors in these accidents, it would be that the fatalities have often been the consequence of poor choices or "operator error" frequently through a series of smaller choices. Most arise from a lack of hazard awareness, appreciation and avoidance or in large measure complacence. These poor choices can be worsened by weather and location/site related conditions among other factors. Choosing to go out in excessively strong wind, squalls and extreme weather through poor judgment, lack of proper weather planning, monitoring, failing to anticipate weather changes, going out with an excessively large kite and/or unfamiliar gear, having a kite up with too small a downwind buffer and close to shore or hard objects, failure to properly practice Emergency Depowering and act in a decisive prudent way EARLY enough, trying to keep the kite flying instead of immediately emergency depowering it and/or setting it free, kiting solo and without someone keeping an eye on you, failure to maintain or properly preflight gear, failure to use reasonable safety gear, helmet, flotation, etc., to complete proper training and/or skill development or going out in conditions beyond the rider’s capabilities, to listen to well intended advice and/or local knowledge, poor health and/or conditioning have figured in these accidents. Wind shadow or turbulence downwind of objects has been a significant factor over the years arising from poor location selection. There are still more factors but these are some of the main ones.

There are lots of truisms dealing with all of this, some worth remembering, "no session is worth the rest of your life," "live to kite another day," "listen to your gut," "distance is your friend," "when in doubt, don't go out" and many more.

Poor kiting practices won't necessarily harm you the first time you do them (but they might) or even the 30th time, it is a numbers game governed by probability. You never know when they might take you out, give you a permanent disability, lay you up for months, trash your kite or cause harm to another kiter in the area. The main thing you can assume for certain is that they are a BAD idea and likely to mess you and/or others up and your access.

Those are some considerations off the top of my head, there are still more. Please read over the accounts and discussions at the link above.

FKA, Inc.

Transcribed by:
Rick Iossi


.


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:20 pm 
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that is a good accumulation of info, even if a bit morbid



i would also say that adverse and changing weather, although obviously posing a risk, cannot be blamed for hardly any injuries or situations in kiteboarding.

kiters that are not prepared to disable their kites can be blamed. hurricane fay guy is a good example. he wasnt "lofted", he sent himself through a powered, wide arching kiteloop ( a couple times) he had more than ample time to disable and land his own kite before any of that happened, never mind taking the first and most obvious step of letting go of the bar as things went wrong. (which he never did throughout his entire amazing ride.) that is bad kiteboarding. nothing more. even if he was on a high depower kite instead of a fuel or whatever he had in the air, it wouldnt have mattered because he never let go anyways, nevermind disabled it.


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:41 pm 
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bnthere wrote:
that is a good accumulation of info, even if a bit morbid



i would also say that adverse and changing weather, although obviously posing a risk, cannot be blamed for hardly any injuries or situations in kiteboarding.

kiters that are not prepared to disable their kites can be blamed. hurricane fay guy is a good example. he wasnt "lofted", he sent himself through a powered, wide arching kiteloop ( a couple times) he had more than ample time to disable and land his own kite before any of that happened, never mind taking the first and most obvious step of letting go of the bar as things went wrong. (which he never did throughout his entire amazing ride.) that is bad kiteboarding. nothing more. even if he was on a high depower kite instead of a fuel or whatever he had in the air, it wouldnt have mattered because he never let go anyways, nevermind disabled it.



As the saying goes... "Hold on, you're going for a ride" ... while this may work with riding bulls it certainly does not work when flying kites....


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Once you are in the high wind emergency from a squall or thunderstorm with a kite up, the outcome is always uncertain. The fellow in WA, Australia had been kiting for over ten years, was safety conscious but excessively gusty weather and circumstances were more than he was able safely manage in the seconds of the emergency. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time and held on to his kite too long into the crisis. There have been dozens of severe accidents in high wind to underscore this fact with all levels of experience. Reaction after the fact is a poor option at best, the art is in avoiding dropping yourself into it in the first place. Often human nature seems to be to hang in there, try to manage, keep the kite flying even when this course can readily take you out. We still need to be prepared and practiced to react properly however, if we do screwup and put ourselves into a high wind emergency, in the hope that we can come through ok.

The goal of an adept, skillful kiter, is to avoid ** the hazardous weather in the first place. This was especially true with traditional C kites and with severe accidents with flat and high depower kites continuing to the present day, it is still true. You need to use your head (training, skill development & good procedures) and judgement in this but life is like that.

Folks can read more about the infamous TS Fay lofting at the link below. There are lots of good lessons to be learned from it.

http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2350692&p=760653


** More about anticipating and avoiding some types of weather hazards in the top stickies at the link below. All kiters need to know and understand weather hazards in their area, it goes with the sport. http://www.kiteforum.com/viewforum.php?f=131

.


Last edited by RickI on Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:02 pm 
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More people ride TT's worlwide and like to hold on to larger kites...trusting the depower of their kites

Less people ride Surfboards worldwide and like to hold on smaller kites...smaller is safer

Is there a conclusion to get from that.......
...we do see less accidents from those who Kitesurf vs those who Kiteboard

Less of course with surfboards because less people ride those of course...
....but also i think people on surfboards have more experience under their belts in general

They are in general more seasoned and experienced with the wind and changing weather conditions

So TT riders are the ones who get in trouble the most...and unfortunately pay with their lives


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 Post subject: Re: kite fatality conclusions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:36 pm 
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markchatwin wrote:
Out the other day holding on to a friend's 9m Best Waroo when weather changed from about 13 mph to gusts to 30mph. Clouds were dark, pelting rain, even sun in the distance. Weather was very unstable however the weather forecast did not call for this instability or squall. I thought it was just going to rain. I was trying to depower frantically when simply put I was lofted right up in the air 10-15 feet and flew through the air maybe 25 feet and landed feet followed by ass in a foot of water. Another 50 feet was the parking lot, cars, trees and houses... I instinctively held on to the bar which helped the lift. I was thinking this was gonna be a little "pick up" until I kept going...


Sooo glad you didnt hurt my infamous 2010 9m waroo :allbegood: ..oh and that you were not hurt :naughty: I have never had the SS depower stick like that, you must have had some big wind jamming that cleat. Now that said, you stuck the landing like a pro gymnast!
:tv:


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