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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:25 am 
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Thor SFBay wrote:
Laughingman wrote:
Touché Johnny, no doubt I will do my best to keep myself off the list. I would consider myself safety Pete and I welcome more conversations about basic and/or advanced measures to keep all of us safe. I just cannot condone a list like this which is lacking in fundamental reasons why what happened happened. But as a person, if I was requested to do something in the event of death I would have no choice morally to follow those instructions to the best of my ability. So far LWC is not recognizing how he and this idea of his is disrespecting the memory of those who we are learning mistakes from by simplifying the incident to one line of cursory information.
That is essentially the purpose and reasoning behind my posts.


While I agree that more information would be useful, this list is a good start and details could be filled in later. I think you are being way too controlling here. Perhaps you should contact your local newspapers and television stations and tell them that you do not want them to report your eventual death kiteboarding "out of respect to your family". I do not think your request is reasonable and I completely disagree that not respecting your wishes is somehow immoral.

Let's get even more specific here. If you died kiteboarding I would have ZERO problem talking about it with other people. I might even say that you did something stupid. I might even call you an idiot or worse. That's just my opinion and you get no special treatment just because you are dead. That might be taboo to you (speaking ill of the dead) but it doesn't mean anything at all to me and talking about it might help someone else from suffering the same fate.

In rock climbing there is an annual list put out of rock climbing accidents and there are discussions about how to avoid the same mistakes. It is extremely useful and I am glad that some people feel the same as far as kiteboarding goes.


I'm all about the conversation, but to be a one line entry summarized for efficiency rubs me the wrong way. People die, I get it. I should be so lucky to die doing what I love, but I certainly would not appreciate my life/death being summarized to one line in a open source db.
Sometimes you just have to expect people will read the details, these details can save lives, one line of perceived or summarized data is not what we need.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:41 am 
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I actually think it is what is needed to get people thinking, anyone can link through to more details. So many people are put off by huuuge amounts of text - this thread for example so many are just gonna read a few threads and just skip teh rest.

The point of this is to have accessible data, i have no problem with a short summary and a column for an extended summary. There are great ways to represent data today in an online compact format. A simple CVS is a good start - works in pain text. There are online applications that will for example be able to show extended summary with a simple mouse over - something for the future not now though

events leading to | summary - something like that - added column.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:53 am 
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How does your database relate to these past efforts? Your paper highlighted in Red was used extensively by anti-kiting interests to oust the sport from the Olympics and presumably would be used again in the future in an effort to keep it out. Your question in the Plumb Beach accident thread brought all this to mind. "Rick I - have u had any communications with IKA ISAF? or done any consultancy work based on kite safety in the last 2 years for anyone (not just IKA ISAF)?"

I am less concerned about kiting participation in the Olympics than collateral damage to kiting beyond the Olympics which a biased reporting, with inflammatory terms like FATAL, CRITICAL with minimal explanation could easily cause. In keeping things short and sweet you are also keeping negative perception high at a glance with minimal redeeming content to actually promote safer kiting practices as has already been said several times.

It sure seems like a serious conflict of interest. Outwardly one seemingly intended to engage kiters in damning their own sport?! Not sure if this is true but it does make one feel somewhat "played" if accurate, don't you think?


http://saveolympicwindsurfing.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/dvnt-report/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ISAFolympicswindsurfing/

http://windsurf-now.blogspot.com

The following document can be found at: http://saveolympicwindsurfing.wordpress.com/tag/safety/


Attachments:
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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:58 am 
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Rick Iossi runs the most complete database for this.
He posts the fatalities and the situations and conclusions, which help us all to be safer.
I don't think we need a public database. This could only used against us, as we saw before.

And let the windsurfer play their dirty games...at the long run they will loose anyway. Can't stop future ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:56 am 
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I read some absolute dirt during that time from windsurfers, just unbelievable... Quoting accidents that happens YEARS ago with dates as if they were recent...

Anecdotal evidence of mixed experience and bull5hit vs an open source database that grows with accuracy and details over time.

Open to a longer description also - you have no idea how many people i have spoken to support this and offered up info after explaining.

Looking at the data so far i am surprised how high the percentage of accidents end up/start on land or are at launch /landing. I knew it would be high, but not that high (kind of spoilt her i guess). A simple lesson for students to learn from this would be be aware of this and to take time to asses the risks of the area surrounding the launch area - The database easily shows things like rocks trees building as key things to consider. Obvious me me, and we can all give our opinions but these things actually happened.

Just in from a good surf - really feeling this is going to do good, I like the analogy to the rock climbers report.


_________________________________________________________________________

Fatal/Critical,date,Gender,Age,Country,Location,Experience (months),Windspeedknt,Kite/size,Land/Water,Summary,Source
Fatal,23/9/13,xxxx,xx,Australia,"Perth, Cottesloe Beach",168,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit by an invisible gust while running along the beach and knocked unconcious and was then lofted up onto a road . He was not landing at the time.,xxxxxx
Fatal,14/5/13,xxxx,xx,Canada,xxxxxxx,36,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit Rocks,xxxxxx
Fatal,11/8/2013,xxxx,xx,Canada,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Stuck in deathloop, drowned.",xxxxxx
Fatal,28/04/09,xxxx,xx,France,Bidart,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Thrown into Parking Lot,xxxxxx
Fatal,8/9/2010,xxxx,xx,France,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,"Struck Building, dragging started in sea.",
Fatal,9/11/2010,xxxx,xx,France,Saint-Jean-de-Luz,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit pier then building,http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327705/Kite-surfer-28-dies-gale-drags-100mph-beach-drops-50ft.html
Fatal,1/1/2011,xxxx,xx,France,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Student stuck with lines under instructor boat, drowned.",xxxxxx
Fatal,14/07/11,xxxx,xx,France,xxxxxxx,0,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Hit road then building@ launch,xxxxxx
Fatal,,xxxx,xx,Japan,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit trees,xxxxxx
Fatal,12/12/2008,xxxx,xx,Mexico,Near LaVenta,24,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Broke Neck on beach,The Oregonian
Fatal,1/1/2013,xxxx,xx,Netherlands,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit wooden pole at launch,xxxxxx
Fatal,1/1/2007,xxxx,xx,New Caledonia,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Stuck in deathloop, drowned.",xxxxxx
Fatal,1/1/2007,xxxx,xx,NZ,xxxxxxx,12,30,xxxxxx,Land,Struck Caravan,xxxxxx
Fatal,25/01/2008,xxxx,xx,Puerto Rico,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Tangled with Equipment, drowned",SurferToday.com
Fatal,28/08/2008,xxxx,xx,UK,Lancing,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Struck Rocks,xxxxxx
Critical,1/1/2012,xxxx,xx,UK,Southend,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Critical injuries,xxxxxx
Critical,1/1/2012,xxxx,xx,UK,Bournmouth,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Critical injuries,xxxxxx
Critical,1/1/2012,xxxx,xx,UK,Bournmouth,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Critical injuries,xxxxxx
Fatal,1/1/2010,xxxx,xx,USA,Maui,48,xx,xxxxxx,Water,"Unknown, found on water without kite",xxxxxx
Fatal,5/2/2010,xxxx,xx,USA,Forida,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Shark attack,xxxxxx
Fatal,24/11/2007,xxxx,xx,USA,LAKE KOSHKONONG,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Found on water,http://www.splashvision.com/Video/13256_Horrible-Kite-Accident.html
Critical,19/8/2008,xxxx,xx,USA,Florida,xx,35,xxxxxx,Land,Huricane incident,http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2586182/Surfer-blown-into-wall-during-tropical-storm.html
Critical,1/1/2011,xxxx,xx,USA,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,"Paralysed, HIt Rock",
Critical,1/12010,xxxx,xx,USA,xxxxxxx,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Paralysed - Shallow,
Fatal,23/5/2010,xxxx,xx,USA,San Francisco,xx,xx,xxxxxx,,,http://sfappeal.com/2010/05/kite-surfer-at-ocean-beach-hospitalized-after-rescue-buy-park-rangers/
Fatal,7/10/2013,xxxx,xx,USA,NYC,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Land,Hit rock Seawall,
Fatal,23/5/11,xxxx,xx,New Caledonia,Koumac village,xx,xx,xxxxxx,Water,Shark attack,http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10727525


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:53 am 
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longwhitecloud wrote:
I read some absolute dirt during that time from windsurfers, just unbelievable... Quoting accidents that happens YEARS ago with dates as if they were recent...

Anecdotal evidence of mixed experience and bull5hit vs an open source database that grows with accuracy and details over time.

Open to a longer description also - you have no idea how many people i have spoken to support this and offered up info after explaining.

Looking at the data so far i am surprised how high the percentage of accidents end up/start on land or are at launch /landing. I knew it would be high, but not that high (kind of spoilt her i guess). A simple lesson for students to learn from this would be be aware of this and to take time to asses the risks of the area surrounding the launch area - The database easily shows things like rocks trees building as key things to consider. Obvious me me, and we can all give our opinions but these things actually happened.

Just in from a good surf - really feeling this is going to do good, I like the analogy to the rock climbers report.


It will only be good for people looking to ban kitesurfing. Toby, please delete this thread, kiteforum is usually one of the top results for Google searches, we don't need to spoon feed critics.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:10 pm 
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+1 for wipe it out

just would work better if Toby also delete all the treads within those 600 pages once someone do a forum seach under the word "accident"

does anybody knows how to do the same but over the global www?

need to keep our spots open!


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:12 pm 
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I am concerned about your motivations for this post Ian and what and how it will be used for. The listings don't provide meaningful safety information but only serve to tarnish kiting. Any statistics derived from unverified accounts with too little information are flawed and deceptive.

Some windsurfers are concerned about staying in the Olympics, well enough. Resorting to smear campaigns such as this with the apparent "support and input" of kiting interests and other low and deceptive efforts in the past is wrong.

Your database looks quite familiar to me from something posted in 2102 by adversarial windsurfing interests, another bunch of inflammatory one liners I haven't been able to find it, can someone help me out?

We need to learn from our mistakes and improve kiting by the process tactfully and privately as indicated. Efforts with hidden agendas to harm the sport with the "seeming" support of kiters are wrong and shouldn't be allowed to stand.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Ian, what's the purpose of this?

Are you pro or contra kiteboarding in the Olympics vs windsurfing?


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:45 pm 
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with this i agree
RickI wrote:
Any statistics derived from unverified accounts with too little information are flawed and deceptive.


i´m really interested in knowing your take on the safety talk of the report LWC is so much critic of.

it accuratly represent the risk of the sport?

it´s boarderline irresponsible?

something in between?

pag 17, here
http://prokitespain.com/prokiteworld/im ... 451%5D.pdf

Toby - same question to you, what do you think of it?


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