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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:05 pm 
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http://windsurf-now.blogspot.com/2012/0 ... iling.html

Remember this? (Not sure if the link worked, but it's Nevin Sayre's letter to US Sailing on 5/25/2012)

A bit of twisted truth and some purposeful deception to serve an agenda by inaccurately maligning a sport in order to make another appear more favorable.

I have always appreciated Rick I's commitment to advancing the safety of our sport, pursuing all the facts surrounding an adverse event, always doing so with respect and compassion for the involved kiters, their families and their communities. I would guess that a good many lives have been spared and many injuries prevented because of lessons learned from Rick's hard work and many contributions.

As far as I currently see it, a simple listing of accidents is of far less value with the potential for far more damage than Rick's detailing of kitesurfing accidents. I don't think it adds any significant benefit for those who are unwilling to read more than a few lines.

I'm not opposed to LWC and others pursuing and promoting safety. I think that's great. However, I believe this should be done with a great deal of care in order to effectively contribute to safety and avoid causing unintended harm. Additionally, I think we should consider whether our contributions are truly for others, or possibly for any self-promoting or self-serving reasons.

John


Last edited by loco4viento on Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:10 pm 
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I really can't see this will help at all with regard to improving safety.

Most kiting accidents are a combination of bad luck and/or bad decisions. Having a mortality list isn't going to stop any of those things.

Agree with the others condemning this thread - definitely an ulterior motive at play here. Total disgrace and very disrespectful to the unfortunate people involved.

Hang your head in shame.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:14 pm 
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I think given the apparent malignant intent from special-interest groups in creating this thread in the first place nothing beneficial is likely to come from it. Misrepresentation deception innuendo all apparently to smear kiting on a kiting forum. The database looks like something from a tabloid at this point. I say let windsurfing interest clearly identify themselves in a new thread so that a reasonable discussion can be held if it all.

Thanks John, I appreciate it. Frankly I'm totally disgusted by this entire thread and the behaviors it suggest took place.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Well written John !

And thx to Rick for his work, I am sure he saved lives!

LWC , my questions are still unanswered...


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:06 pm 
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I say delete the thread. Its a compendium of unverified incidents which do not in any way benefit kiting. I cant believe that newbies would bother to pore through this table and come up with any meaningful safety lessons. I can believe anti-kiters would readily use this for whatever nefarious purposes they may have.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:31 pm 
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find it almost funny that the same people that claim the wrongness of this database as it would mislead the risk associated with the sport, to then fail to offer their comments on a IKA report that is exactly doing that but in the opposite direction

respect!


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:48 pm 
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delete thread? wtf.. mind u 34 posts lol

"respect" - thx , that means a lot to me...

everyone get educated by taking time to read below... I don't like long posts but the way politics has worked its ugly head here makes it impossible to shorten.
______________________________

I don't mind making comment that IKAs 2 public reports on kiteboarding were grossly irresponsible for our sport and contained inexcusable amateur inaccuracies. Like a delusional sales pitch without consideration for the current and potentially new kiteboarders that the publicity drive would initiate. Parents that aspired to get their young kids into kiteboarding, that knew nothing about kiteboarding, read those 2 reports for example. To me that reflected very badly on kiteboarding(the sport I have been doing for over 13 years) and may well have been the downfall of the campaign itself.

There were no comments whatso ever from Rick I during this time, or since about this issue.. - Just let the anti olympic campaigners have their say. The person with 10 years of hard work on kiteboard safety, didn't even make a single public comment- rumor has it you were asked not to by Markus at IKA - let him deal with the politics - the actual person that wrote these dodgy reports. Not exactly keeping it real....

The source of this rumor was on a facebook page - it is on an old hard drive as a screenshot. Also Markus didnt have a problem asking kiteboard experts not to comment /debate- leave the politics to him he said - got that one too as a screenshot.... just rely on his dodgy reports.

I know toby is friends with Markus from IKA (both German) so I guess he is torn, but I also know Toby sticks up for what he believes, because even with all the put downs about his air stye initiative - he has kept going and been part of influencing riders to enjoy their sport more (if you spent as much as you said on dvd prodution i know this lol - itunes time..!) and I know he feels a responsibility to kiteboarders above any olympic inclusion possibly in 2020 and paid advertising.

Mass exposure for kiteboarding combined with a sport where many countries had no form of training systems whatsoever and certainly very little experience of youth in kiteboarding at the time (there are exceptions). ---------- The solution by IKA was to align sailing to kiteboarding in order to rectify this situation - it was highly irresponsible because sailing clubs were being asked to hold events if they were representative for ISAF in their country as windsurfing was voted out at the time - kiteboarding in.

Meetings were held between kiteboarders and the countries olympic representative sailing clubs, and they said they couldn't believe they were stuck in this crazy situation where they had no knowledge at all of kiteboarding -a sport where you are a pilot , not a helmsman, let alone kiteboarding safety - and yet were being asked to drive the changeover from windsurfing to kiteboarding and run safe,sanctioned events when kiteboarding won the vote.

YOU COULD NOT ENTER ThESE EVENTS UNLESS YOU JOINED THE SAILING CLUB/ ISAF REPRESENTATIVE FOR YOUR COUNTRY - if you did not buy into this you would never be able to represent your country in the olympics and just had to accept that the ISAF rep for your country would be running events (some kite industry sellouts were supportive -
$$$$$). So there I was ...talking to a sailing safety officer about kiteboarding.... he had no clue whatsoever (not his fault - he was a sailor), and if i was wanting to enter oversea race competitions (my freestyle body is a touch ruined..) as i wanted to at the time , he was telling me this was the way it was going to be....

Without safe launching/ landing areas (no additional facilities for sailing clubs required according to Markus/ IKA reports bahhhh..), hook knives on support boats - what are they?, no idea how many rescue boats per kiter, no idea how to rescue a kiter safely, no idea that kiters cannot launch where there are wind shadow lulls below the force required to keep the kite in the air (kind of eliminates most sailing clubs in nz!), basically they had no business whatsoever being forced into the position where they were being asked to run these events and they were being fed the information from the 2 reports that were bull5hit anyway.

I saw this as slimy, dodgy, dangerous - basically corruption, and while it flew past many peoples heads (there were still many kiters concerned about the above at time) and certain kite industry people kept silent due to possible economic gain / olympic hype fame - god knows what... - I spoke out - with no regrets. I notice Markus is no longer president of IKA, who wrote the reports - initiated the above.

I actually couldn't give a crap about kiteboarding being in the olympics, it was no where near my priority whatsoever, and to make it VERY clear my motivation is not to collect this information for anti olympics-The next possibly of kiteboarding even being in the olympics is 2020 in case you did not already know. That article you posted on the windsurfing website (which I stand by) was a cut and paste job from my facebook page and they added in other stuff form internet searches - not a campaign from me against kiteboarding in the olympics - they created it. Even though I did not give any permission for it, I actually don't have a problem with anyone publishing it - to do so would be again - double standards...

I think I have contributed more than my fair share to promoting kiteboarding itself and kiteboarding safety, both on this website and in my country (NZ). I ran a kiteboard company since the early days 2001 (no longer), have been moderately successful in wave and freestyle competition (NZ nationals title), have contributed greatly to helping other get into it (kite school and mentoring) and have competed overseas. I have also helped run a kiteboarding charity event for a local kids hospital recently. I dislike talking about this stuff because i have a distain for narcissistic ego maniacs but feel I have no choice when someone says hang your head in shame, talks of lynch mobs and trys to paint a picture that I am doing this for the wrong reasons. I could show you 100 people I have helped for each of the sad political/$$$ driven opinionated put downs. But - this is a forum - the internet - I know it comes with the territory. I am big enough to be able to stand up for myself.


I am not paid or involved in the kiteboarding industry any more. Clearly many people think my initiative is a good idea as the database has already taken on more columns and MORE details in event description offered up by supportive kiteboarding folk. It will grow organically, Rick I didn't start with with awesome data in his personal private database...

I started the idea to give back to kiteboarding. Rick I has done good work but is not my guru, nor should he be yours. The very concept of thinking that someone that is paid to use similar data that they hold in expert witness cases should be the only person to hold this data due to access concerns is absolute bull5hit, even withholding opinion during an important transitional time for kiteboarding - It is double standards again..

What do you do when you deal with access issues - just give out the data that suits you - the situation that you are supporting... We don't have any access issues in NZ. Kiters getting killed or injured worldwide are nowhere near a level of concern for bans compared to other accepted sports so it is not a problem anyway( This doesnt really apply to nz where this kind of thinking in not normal - enjoy life - self responsibility). Injured 3rd parties are another matter completely, but in my entire time kitesurfing I have only ever heard of one bad one in france like 11 years ago and i dont know if that is true.

My motto is keep it real, I just did. I'm off to the west coast for a kite.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:20 am 
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Your behavior is inexcusable in this matter, misrepresenting your intent, deceiving fellow forum members with whom you have been interacting with for quite a long time. You try to profit by maligning the memory of the dead and injured without regard for truth or compassion for the victims, their family or friends. Many of those were windsurfers as well as kiters. You even kill off live kiters in print, in your zeal to distort the truth to support a bizarre agenda. You willfully do this to try to harm kiting in the Olympic arena with out regard to harm that could easily follow in many other areas at the same time. Ian Collenette, the windsurfers I know would neither understand nor accept your warped behavior on their behalf. The ends don't always justify the means certainly not in this case.

Toby, this thread is full of fraud and malicious intent against kiting and really windsurfing too by extension. I would ask that it be deleted too, I don't think any good will come from it for either sport.

.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:13 am 
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Delete it? My god i'd actually front up and be addressing the issues if I were you not deleting it.

I will happily debate anything I wrote which you don't seem to want to address, but... particularly your comment as me as an outcast is a baseless personal attack - so you lose by default.


"You willfully do this to try to harm kiting in the Olympic arena with out regard to harm that could easily follow in many other areas at the same time "

Fundamentally that is the difference between me and you . You hide things under rocks at your convenience, I myself think kiteboarding is at a stage where these things are best out in the public domain - and this up for debate because much of what has been said is opinion, simply that.

Its called a difference of opinion. I simply see yours as double standards. I am up for open debate not radio silence when it is convenient.

And remember, its kiteboarding, not a world crisis, no need for personal attacks, there is far more important shit going on in the world.

This post has become so long and drawn out - where you could simply have addressed the concerns that are clearly not only mine. I know it as diversion tactics. I prioritized kiteboarder safety above the olympic drive. Campaigning against the way in which IKA approached its campaign is not anti olympic. I was in the olympic sailing training squad for my country when i was a grom, I can see it possibly becoming an olympic sport with someone awesome to aspire to for youth - but its got to be done right - and it wasn't.

Always happy to take my info about accidents, you even chased me up and I helped you. But the other way around - no way - private data - risks access - rubbish!

I did this initiative for the good of kiteboarding which you have no control over it anyway,IT IS FOR PEOPLE TO LEARN FROM, IT IS NOT TO HARM KITING. THE MOTIVE IS NOT ANTI OLYMPICS.

You can't just choose who you give data to due to your opinion about something and be seen as impartial.

This is a hot topic right now, i expect everyone to calm down and think before they write.

and about this - lost for words.....
"profiting from the dead"
"bizarre agenda"
"harm kiting in the Olympic arena"
"warped behavior"
"outcast"


Last edited by longwhitecloud on Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:48 am 
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I still wonder why you went this way.
If you were positive towards kiting in Olympics, shouldn't you just have moved forward and show the sailors and clubs what to look out for?

You saw a problem...why no help to solve it instead of going agains it and take our kiting kids a dream? It would have solved many problems with access and getting support for talented riders.

Is there any personal vendetta behind it?


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