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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:20 am 
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LWC & Rick & et al,

I apologies if this is out of line, however, it seems that the progress of this thread is playing chicken on "right and wrong" for no additional benefit of the sport, only the egos and defenses' of the key players.

Risk can be either, managed, mitigated or avoided or a combination of them all. What are you hoping to achieve? one, the other or a combination and for who’s benefit? Olympic inclusion and/or exclusion permanently effected by professional self-promotion? Or is this just social media grandstanding?

This is looking like a way that can harm all and not benefit any. Open source data collection and presentation is prone to manipulation for the benefit of those engaged for their own objectives, either innocent or through intent. If you hope for honesty in an anonymous world, go back to sleep and keep dreaming! (Sorry; had to be said) In theory it should work, but in reality it doesn't, many things should but they don't.

Guys, not wishing to be involved in right or wrong, but with an insurance and risk management back ground, involved in water sports both recreational and competitive. Perhaps you could take this off line and aim to assist in mitigating loss. This may mean dropping the ego and objective driven mindset for an outcome that benefits all.

Personal, physical, financial and emotional loss can occur anywhere in life, the successful manage it, minimize it and through various education processes remove or mitigate wherever possible to achieve their desired objectives.

Please find a way to stop NOW! take a deep breath, meet, state your objectives, present your points of view to each other, IKA, manufacturers, retailers, educators, participants and anyone else who has a positive or negative view of the activity of kiteboarding and sort it out! The last thing you should wish to achieve is for someone else to sort it out for you (and everyone else) through laws and regulations, exclusions or forced total abandonment though absolute exclusion.

We all live in a community, when an aircraft crashes and injures and/or kills passengers and people on the ground the delegated officials of the government investigate and engage all relevant parties to mitigate risk to all in the future.

This sport has a brief history of say 15 years; help it to continue to grow without ego or attitude. Acknowledge risk and mitigate it with better attitudes, education, equipment and procedures and at worst exclusion of persons not valuing their own safety or that of others, or locations that are a no go at certain times of the year.

Sorry but, "If you behave like children and harm yourself or others, you invite the fun police to take away your toys"


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Posts: 1398
"present your points of view" fo sure - too much drawn out babble so far.

1. Data collected already shows the IKA reports to ISAF/IOC on kiteboarding were irresponsible, particularly towards non kiting parents wishing for their kids to get into kiteboarding by making an informed decision.

2. The data can be used to help identify equipment design problems- (eg deathloop minimization)

3. It can be used to help produce good training material (manuals,books, online info, courses)

4. Viewing this data is educational/beneficial for kiteboarders

5. Serious 3rd party accidents that would risk access are extremely rare .


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Posts: 2254
Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
imported into excel went to graph fatalities vs wind speed. longwhitecloud there is no wind speed data. none, zero. Add it please. There are dates and locations u should be able to pull up wind speed from one of the wind sites.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:01 pm
Posts: 90
longwhitecloud - are you actually a kitesurfer, and if so is it your primary water sport?

You keep referring to 'kitesurfing friends' which implies to me you are not one yourself. I refer to friends that kite as.. friends.

Just think it's only fair for everyone to understand where this is coming from.

It's a very simple and reasonable question. I hope you will answer it honestly.

EDT- as for digging out wind speeds from historical web records - this is sounding more and more like a fictional database. This whole thread just killed some of my soul.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:03 pm 
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Posts: 344
Honestly LWC, I don't think your qualified enough or have the proper experience yet to engage in the development of such a database. I think your initiative is great but you will most likely do more damage going on the path you are going now. You are not willing to accept that and that alone is a critical flaw.

Misinformation and misunderstanding is a major factor in how those who don't kitesurf and those who have the authority to regulate kitesurfing at a particular location interpret the sport and the safety of the sport,

Trust me, being a OG (old guy) in the realm of kiteboarding, most of my friends and peers look at kiteboarding as a reckless sport with a bunch of irresponsible kids with long hair and tattoos that skateboard in the streets running the show. How many no skateboarding signs do you see posted in your neighborhood? How many YouTube videos are out there that depict a bunch of wreckless kids sliding down stair railings cracking their balls and then getting hit by a car at the bottom of the railing. Funny right, but damaging yes.

It is only now that in urban areas the powers to be are building skateboard parks in urban areas. But.... How long has skateboarding been around relative to kiteboarding and how long did it take for them to realize they need to react more positively to skateboarding?

Rick has been the safety guru since the beginning. I don't know how he started and he may have been involuntarily initiated but...........he has been the only person willing to track, maintain and evaluate incidents. No one else has stepped in to accept and handle this task. And all of us have accepted his role and consulted him on safety issues. There has been no equivalent, trust me. Even those that disregard and disrespect his role must understand he is the only one at this level. Not to say that there are not very experienced and responsible individuals that promote, educate and advocate safety out there, but no one near the level and experience Rick has.

So with that said, your approach has been very disrespectful and wrong. There is always a courtesy factor, a respect for your "elders" factor, a respect for those that are way more experienced than you are factor, etc. that you MUST follow. Think of a surfer lineup, etc. also, would you just go to someone else's launch and post up your own rule sign? No friggin way. This happens to be Ricks beach. And it can not only be Ricks beach......but before you go changing the rules and creating policy and disseminate information on Ricks beach, you need to consult and work with Rick and both reach an agreement before you move forward

Thats what I see here and that's the major problem with this interaction. Rick lives in a location that has had more beach bans and regulation than anywhere else in the world. There are more places in that location that require membership, membership fees, IKO level 3 certification cards, and kiteboarder insurance than anywhere else in the world.

Nuff said and I hope you understand and respect that experience. Now with this database. IMO, this information must be displayed in a way that depicts the situation, the accident, and the solution in one glance. Screw the 1.6 comparison because I dont think browsing or skimming the Internet is comparable to the time spent on a website once you find what your looking for. You may skim your Google search result for discount kite gear but once you find your site, you spend a hell of a lot more time then 1.6 seconds. And before you buy that kite you have properly compared your brands, evaluated pros and cons, and made sure you were getting the best price before you made your final decision on interpretating that information.

This database must have a description of the conditions, the equipment, the kilter experience, the contributing factors, the potential cause of the accident, and most important the potential solutions for this project to have the desired outcome.

Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:05 am
Posts: 62
Great post krazedkiter. Again without any verification, collation, interpretation of data open source is BS. Wikipedia often erroneous facts or has been manipulated in such a way as to prop up some entities own selfish position on issues. Its akin to have an open source database on aviation incidents. I would rather trust the data and conclusions garnered by the NTSB. This is not about censorship; its about truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Posts: 1398
Am I am kitesurfer/ do I have qualifications?
I don't write this to come across as a complete self centered idiot or the guru of kite safety- but when people are questioning even questioning if I actually kitesurf.. I certainly don't like to rate myself.....Kiting 13 years, BEng Hons degree,Have probably logged more riding hours than most kiteboarders on planet earth,where I live has some of the most varied kite conditions on earth,
have run my own kiteschool, have written for Kiteword magazine, have won an award for rescuing a kitesurfer, have been part of a 100km offshore charity kitesurf mission, have run a kiteboard equipment company, Have kited in 15 countries, Have competed overseas, Have had success in both freestyle and wave competitions, National title in freestyle, 2nd in NZ wave series competition, well known to have contributed greatly by educating about the side effects of modern kite design, have contributed here for 10 years?!, no conflicts of interest, no ulterior motives other than my love for kiteboarding. I don't the sun shines out my ass or am anything special but I do think I am a good person to initiate this idea.

Thx for Suggestions, this is what it is all about

Wind speed -weird I added some yesterday.. i check up and start adding them in as a priority which i think it should be. will add tinyurl source also- eg first hand local kiteforums / historical wind data is used the tiny url with reference that.

Conditions - will fill these in

Source - will fill in sources for all events..

13 other people have helped with this database now. All data will be verified. There are no 3rd party incidents - it will not risk access. Data is not released according to agenda - it is open for anyone to interpret - anyone to verify, it is almost all sourced from data already freely available online.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:40 pm
Posts: 666
Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
Krazedkiter wrote:
Honestly LWC, I don't think 1. your qualified enough or have the proper experience yet to engage in the development of such a database. I think your initiative is great but you will 2. most likely do more damage going on the path you are going now. You are 3. not willing to accept that and that alone is a critical flaw.

4. Misinformation and misunderstanding is a major factor in how those who don't kitesurf and those who have the authority to regulate kitesurfing at a particular location interpret the sport and the safety of the sport,

Trust me, being a OG (old guy) in the realm of kiteboarding, most of my friends and peers look at kiteboarding as a reckless sport with a bunch of irresponsible kids with long hair and tattoos that skateboard in the streets running the show. How many no skateboarding signs do you see posted in your neighborhood? How many YouTube videos are out there that depict a bunch of wreckless 5. kids sliding down stair railings cracking their balls and then getting hit by a car at the bottom of the railing. Funny right, but damaging yes.

It is only now that in urban areas the powers to be are building skateboard parks in urban areas. But.... How long has skateboarding been around relative to kiteboarding and how 6. long did it take for them to realize they need to react more positively to skateboarding?

Rick has been the safety guru since the beginning. I don't know how he started and he may have been involuntarily initiated but...........he has been the only person willing to track, maintain and evaluate incidents. No one else has stepped in to accept and handle this task. And all of us have accepted his role and consulted him on safety issues. There has been no equivalent, trust me. Even those that disregard and disrespect his role must understand he is the only one at this level. Not to say that there are not very experienced and responsible individuals that promote, educate and advocate safety out there, but no one near the level and experience Rick has.

So with that said, your approach has been very disrespectful and wrong. 7. There is always a courtesy factor, a respect for your "elders" factor, a respect for those that are way more experienced than you are factor, etc. that you MUST follow. Think of a surfer lineup, etc. also, would you just go to someone else's launch and post up your own rule sign? No friggin way. This happens to be Ricks beach. And it can not only be Ricks beach......but before you go 8. changing the rules and creating policy and disseminate information on Ricks beach, you need to consult and work with Rick and both reach an agreement before you move forward

Thats what I see here and that's the major problem with this interaction. Rick lives in a location that has 9. had more beach bans and regulation than anywhere else in the world. There are more places in that location that require membership, membership fees, IKO level 3 certification cards, and kiteboarder insurance than anywhere else in the world.

Nuff said and I hope you understand and respect that experience. Now with this database. IMO, 10. this information must be displayed in a way that depicts the situation, the accident, and the solution in one glance. Screw the 1.6 comparison because I dont think browsing or skimming the Internet is comparable to the time spent on a website once you find what your looking for. You may skim your Google search result for discount kite gear but once you find your site, you spend a hell of a lot more time then 1.6 seconds. And before you buy that kite 11. you have properly compared your brands, evaluated pros and cons, and made sure you were getting the best price before you made your final decision on interpretating that information.

12. This database must have a description of the conditions, the equipment, the kilter experience, the contributing factors, the potential cause of the accident, and most important the potential solutions for this project to have the desired outcome.

Good luck.


1. your qualified enough
How “qualified” should someone have to be to be willing to put the time and effort into the ADMINISTRATIVE function of gathering and listing EXISTING info?

2. most likely do more damage
This is PURE SPECULATION based upon unsupported personal opinion.

3. not willing to accept that
Of course not. Having a different OPINION than yours doesn’t make the concept critically flawed.

4. Misinformation and misunderstanding is a major factor
This is TRUE. LWC proposes to MASSIVELY INCREASE the amount of information easily available. MORE info = LESS misunderstanding.

5. kids sliding down stair railings
It is TRUE that idiot videos promoting irresponsible behavior are bad.

6. long did it take for them to realize they need to react more positively to skateboarding?
Seems pretty obvious that IF a database of the accidents HAD EXISTED, the POSITIVE response would have occurred SOONER.

7. There is always a courtesy factor, a respect for your "elders" factor, a respect for those that are way more experienced than you are factor, etc. that you MUST follow. Think of a surfer lineup, etc.
TOTAL DRIVEL!

8. changing the rules and creating policy and disseminate information on Ricks beach,
It isn’t “Rick’s beach” and there are NO “rules” regarding disseminating information.

9. had more beach bans and regulation than anywhere else in the world.
This comment doesn’t support a contention that Rick’s approach is particularly effective does it ? At the very least, it demonstrates a need for ADDITIONAL HELP.

10. this information must be displayed in a way that depicts the situation, the accident, and the solution in one glance.
Like one of Rick’s 3 or 4 paragraph posts?

11. you have properly compared
Who are you to say what criteria someone ELSE should use for comparisons ? What if their main concern is PRICE ? A database would allow them to search ONLY the information wanted, in this case, those kites in the proper price range.

12. This database must have a description of the conditions, the equipment, the kilter experience, the contributing factors, the potential cause of the accident, and most important the potential solutions for this project to have the desired outcome.
Obviously, it is hoped that as it grows and evolves this, and OTHER, information will be added and/or corrected if need be.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Posts: 1398
omg i needed a laugh under this pressure and u just gave it to me with one of your very true but incredibly funny observations...


Skateboarding... Another sport I know a lot about from my youth. For years people looked down on sports like these and the pioneers that were involved, without giving time or understanding to the fact it was an incredibly positive pastime that requires huge skill, fitness - mental and physical, grows interests in other ares of sport art and career, and grows life long friendships. Media painted an obscure picture for years, some skate $industry$ pimped a bad image at the expense of many riders - it was the pioneering skateboarders themselves that turned this around with honesty, transparency and a lot of hard work. = not by hiding under rocks.

Today prize money is over a million dollars for a single street competition. Community Facilities are at an all time high worldwide with skateboarder involvement in the community, park design, events, anti youth suicide focus... skateboarders don't hide. Skateparks, value wise, have the greatest user per $$$ value of any council facility in my area. There are even areas in the world now that are parks, not specifically designed for skateboarding but it is accepted that it is a positive thing to have youth enjoying these spots. The olympics would give anything to have skateboarding on board, now that action sports events have stolen the show for most youth worldwide - it is no surprise why this has happened. Kiteboarding is growing fast.

I am part of that community in kitesurfing now, I am heavily involved, I was a pioneer in my area (knew of one other kiter when i started). I am willing to put more time in, I am encouraging others to help, not just with this database but get involved and encouraging people with dealing with their own issues as community. You florida folk/ friends of ricks putting me down here want to get on putting effort in dealing with the issues you have - not spend your time trying to discredit me, i don't want to have to waste time correcting your accusations either.

My local town (its very small!) has put up another $1.5 million for 2 skateparks through local involvement of the riders themselves. Council removed wooden poles at the beach that we considered dangerous for kiting - i took time to get a relationship with them - not be scared of them, we chainsaw up trees when they float onto the beach and present risk, I have helped run community kiteboarding events, we are friends with our local surf club - they come looking for us when they have an issue with an often overseas kiter going though the swimming areas or acting dangerously, I am nice to them.. no attitude, have never had someone tell me to f#$% off - many are my friends still, we have the attitude of "help people", don't take the piss out of them/tell them to f^^$$ off if they are having a hard time with their kiting, we lobbied and got local laws against kiteboarding reversed that were not intended for us so they could never be used against us, we fought an attempted ban on kiteboarding at one spot in relation to birds in NZ and won, we always bother to chase up any bad media with inaccurate information in NZ and inform of the positive things also kiteboarding brings to community.

We did all this without a kitesurfing association, in fact many kiwis are clever enough to be cautious how these associations are run - many don't like them.. (Kiwis are extremely anti nanny state - self responsibility is the respected method). Kiwis dont even need public liability insurance because with have a government run business that looks after this prioritizing reducing risk above commercial success. They run ad campaigns to reduce the key problem areas - it is proven to work they don't run ads with fear designed to make more $$$ out of unfortunate events.

The internet gives far more opportunity to more easily and quickly present kiteboarder community discussion when issues arise - without involving minutes, meetings, voting, industry conflicts, do gooders that take control of the situation because they have more time that others..

i was involved in all of this.

Media threw out much opinion against skateboarding for years, I have seen it do the same to kiteboarding. Today media embrace skateboarding/tony hawk/dew x games.. a success story giving many youth focus and building an absolutely huge industry with real career opportunities.

They didn't do it by hiding under a rock.

I'll gladly front up to anyone that puts kiteboarding down and lies about it , and i'll have the facts and I have the experience to back it up.

I wont be begging for information out of someones private commercial conflict of interest database that seems to think he is the worldwide guru of kite safety and that no one else is qualified to have this organized data unless they agree with his opinions.


Ha!! i like what i wrote... I will be putting more time into this, any help welcome cos i got a busy week.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:03 am
Posts: 344
Another self centered response and you obviously did not read or understand my post.

You need to be more accepting of people's input. You appear to be only accepting input from those that are completely supportive of your idea. That is the damaging part. The idea is fantastic but needs to be done right.

And did RichardM just support a short concise approach???LOL. You must have depressions in your keyboard keys, especially the bold key.......

One example of improper dissemination of information...the recent kite beach Maui post. There was misinformation right from the beginning. The thread and input and responses by many were hastily done, improper, incorrect, and the big part, most certainly damaging. RichardM actually impressed me in his posts on that one. That thread ultimately ( and incorrectly IMO) was deleted because it was a complete embarrassment.


Last edited by Krazedkiter on Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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