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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:06 pm 
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I already added in some stuff you suggested. - you know you can do some work yourself to help here right? not rely on thinking i am all talk and no effort as a way to discredit me. The discredit regarding experience/ qualifications was kind of epic fail lol, even then i'd be stoked/respect if people with less experience than me put in some time - it's not rocket science...

"kitebeach maui event" i was actually there at that time on that day, he was japanese i think - an experienced rider, - just cant remember exact date, i will be chasing it up cos i don't know if anyone found out what happened. I know people I can ask in Maui, if you know any better tell us, don't play these little games trying to waste my time.


Last edited by longwhitecloud on Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:16 pm 
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No epic fail on that. Qualification and experience also refer to your willingness to work with others and your acceptance of constructive criticism. With that said this was my first impression based on the posts here. It's unfortunate you do not accept my input as merely that.

I'm not playing games.. What in the world are you talking about? That Maui thread went crazy because information was coming in from every direction and very hastily. I have no need to know any more information. You seem very emotional about this and are not understanding what people are writing. Take a few minutes before you respond.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:25 pm 
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I have read through (most of) these posts - without wading in to the debate, I have a question:-
One of the main objections to maintaining a public database appears to be that Rickl already maintains one privately?


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:25 pm 
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@Krazedkiter

Add in tinyurl links for source - for wind conditions etc. Anything you edit put in a source anything u know but don't have a qualified source for leave source cell blank or xxxxs someone else might know more - put in the year though if you can so it can be investigated more quickly.

if you dont have time i will do it.

I don't know what thread you are talking about. I was at kitebeach AT THE TIME. That is how i know about it, that is why it is in there. like i said either you fill in the columns or i will ask a few kiter I know in Maui because I spoke to a few people and it was hard to understand what actually happened so i didnt make any presumptions . If there were differing opinions as to what happens - write that. thx i will try and find that thread and read it too.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:11 am 
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I also share some other people concerns about this DB, but in balance I´m willing to help

so here it goes my contribution (bellow)

there are also 2 other accidents in my country where I will try to get more details about, they are older and will require some digging

PS
longwhitecloud wrote:
@Krazedkiter I don't know what thread you are talking about. I was at kitebeach AT THE TIME.
not sure u 2 are speaking about the same thing

______________________________________________

Critical
Date: 23-Oct-2011
Spot: Portugal, Fonte da Telha

Rider - female, between 30 and 40 yo, athletic condition, newbie (water start/first tacks phase). No info about previous board sports / wind sports experience.
Kite - SLE, 9m. No info on brand and model.

Spot description - open sand beach, no rocks or other major obstacles (a friendly location).

Wind description - side / on-shore.
Wind strength -no info; reports saying the kite size was adequate for the condition.
Wind quality - winter winds tend to be moderately gusty within that spot.
Water Condition - sea w/ incoming swell. Wave size, period, etc. info not available but estimated guess: waste to chest size on the bigger sets.
Other notes - the typical wind direction is NW during kite season (summer); winter days are rare and wind direction turns 180º (S/SW).

Accident description -
During the water start the rider lost her balance due to the incoming waves and as a consequence the spacial awareness position against the kite.

The kite was then flown to the wrong side (land side), the rider lift and projected against the sand, hit with the head in the ground and loose conscience

Accident Consequence - several months in coma, memory loss, speach and written ability loss, extensive recovery

Potential causes for the accident (speculative) -
Rider level not align with the sea conditions
Water start too near to shore
Wind direction coming 180º from typical conditions may have been a contributive factor

Potential mitigation measures -
Water start in deeper waters
Helmet


Last edited by Tiago1973 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:10 am 
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Location: The New Old West
hey Ho...

on my iPad so I'll keep it short..

in my humble opinion no one is qualified to quantify safety as residing anywhere across the entire spectrum of conditions or venues..

keep a private data base, ? why not ? gay sex and masturbation in the privacy of your crib are a few of the myriad perks of the closeted lustful...so have at , then stand back and pat yourself on the back, you're not a statistic yet ! Sweet !

there have been cute little jingles in the past, 'keep it low and go' comes to mind that lack an overall sense...

read: none the safety speak makes sense for it involves interpretation and folks opinions of the variables, and truly no situation can be deemed safe that also provides the requist horsepower .

So....

bag the lot, least the sensible folks catch on, and see we are a cluster fuck first and formost.

proud to be, anti promo, anti hype, anti sand swami...

carry- on
fokiten


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:35 pm 
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A lot of suggestions for fields and data added in.

amongst others
Wind data/conditions - is a bit harder to source - a start has been made though - constant improvement - anyone is free to add a historic data wind field or i will do it at some stage - concentrating on first hand witnesses for this data myself for now.
use of tinyurls for far clearer reading
multiple sources of summary - most direct first
source of wind strength
source of conditions
source or opinion for mitigation measures

My opinions - the suggestions for extra fields are good. Longer summary data is good. Constant improvement of data is good. Open source is good. All your suggestions are good except for the ones that say this already public data should not be collected together - that only rick I should be trusted to do this, and that even then that his opinions will dictate what stats are released if any at all.

RickI: What is your opinion on the 2 olympic reports on kiteboarding that in my opinion prioritized olympic inclusion before keeping newcomer and fellow kiteboarders safe worldwide by being highly inaccurate and ambiguous.

Not answering may give the impression here that you decided not not give one because you have a conflict of interest and double standards.

My opinions based on data so far

Approximately half of the critical injuries and fatalities here have been a result of final contact with land. A few a sea also - boat (teaching boat with instructor in it), yacht, buoy.

All kite companies need to consider deathloop potential in their kite designs as part of the design process.

This data in this fomat is highly useful in educating potential and current kiteboarders.
__________________________________________________________________

Fatal/Critical,date,Country,Location,Experience (months),Experience source,Windspeed/conditions,Windspeed source,Kite/size,Final Contact,Kite,Summary,Most Direct Summary Source first,Potential mitigation measures if any,Source of Opinion
Fatal,23/9/13,Australia,"Perth, Cottesloe Beach",Hightly experienced 168 ,Kiter on Kiteforum,Moderate/light wind then gust hit.,http://tinyurl.com/pc68q5z,xxxxxx,Land,,Hit by an invisible gust while running along the beach and knocked unconcious and was then lofted up onto a road . He was not landing at the time.,Kiter on Kiteforum,,
Fatal,12/5/2013,Canada,xxxxxxx,A few years ,http://tinyurl.com/ky85ja5,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,FOne Bandit,Got stuck in deathloop. Witness said for 10 mins.,http://tinyurl.com/kcwcqeg,,
Fatal,11/8/2013,Canada,Lac Saint-Jean,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,,http://tinyurl.com/mma6vgp http://tinyurl.com/msueg8e http://tinyurl.com/oz8ml52,,
Fatal,28/04/09,France,Bidart,xx,,Strong winds,http://tinyurl.com/jwr8pz3,xxxxxx,Land,,Thrown into Parking Lot,http://tinyurl.com/jwr8pz3,,
Fatal,8/9/2010,France,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,"Struck Building, dragging started in sea.",source another online- investigate if true - possible duplicate,,
Fatal,9/11/2010,France,Saint-Jean-de-Luz,xx,,High wind forecast,http://tinyurl.com/cnfazcv,xxxxxx,Land,,Hit pier then building,http://tinyurl.com/cnfazcv,,
Fatal,5/9/2011,France,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,"Pupil got into deathloop bridle tangle. Rescue attempt with boat. Student stuck with lines under instructor boat, drowned.",Summarized account by the instructor ,,
Fatal,14/07/11,France,xxxxxxx,0,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,Hit road then building@ launch,kiteforum.com member - needs verification,,
Fatal,,Japan,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Hit trees,Rick I on kiteforum,,
Fatal,12/12/2008,Mexico,Near LaVenta,24,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Broke Neck on beach,The Oregonian ,,
Fatal,1/1/2013,Netherlands,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Hit wooden pole at launch,kiteforum.com member - needs verification,,
Fatal,1/1/2007,New Caledonia,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,"Stuck in deathloop, drowned.",New Caledonian kiter -needs verifying,,
Critical,23/10/2011,Portugal,Fonte da Telha,newbie (water start/first tacks phase,http://tinyurl.com/oly7y86,"No info, suitable kite size talked of in source",http://tinyurl.com/oly7y86,,"Unsure Shallow water, or from ater to land",,"During the water start the rider lost her balance due to the incoming waves and as a consequence the spacial awareness position against the kite. The kite was then flown to the wrong side (land side), the rider lift and projected against the sand, hit with the head in the ground and loose conscience. Accident Consequence - several months in coma, memory loss, speach and written ability loss, extensive recovery.",http://tinyurl.com/oly7y86,Water start in deeper waters,http://tinyurl.com/oly7y86
Fatal,25/01/2008,Puerto Rico,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,"Tangled with Equipment, drowned",SurferToday.com ,Helmet,
Fatal,28/08/2008,UK,Lancing,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Struck Rocks,xxxxxx,,
Critical,1/1/2012,UK,Southend,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Critical injuries,uk newspaper investigate,,
Critical,1/1/2012,UK,Bournmouth,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Critical injuries,uk newspaper investigate,,
Critical,1/1/2012,UK,Bournmouth,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Critical injuries,uk newspaper investigate,,
Critical,15/4/2013,UK,Poole,Experienced,,"not that windy, were squalls",,xxxxxx,Land,,Dragged 30m into sign then into building. serious head injuries,http://tinyurl.com/n5qs369,,
Fatal,1/1/2010,USA,Maui,48,,xx,,,Water,,"Unknown, found on water without kite",Kiteforum member,,
Fatal,5/2/2010,USA,Forida,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,Shark attack,News media,,
Fatal,24/11/2007,USA,LAKE KOSHKONONG,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,Found on water,http://tinyurl.com/m4rn5ns,,
Fatal,22/11/2011,USA,Cape Hatteras,xx,,,,Cape Hatteras,Water,,"Couldnt relaunch at sea, last seen detached from kite. Found drowned.",http://tinyurl.com/m2kacnb,,
Critical,19/8/2008,USA,Florida,xx,,35,,xxxxxx,Land,,Huricane incident,http://tinyurl.com/6c3djy,,
Critical,1/1/2011,USA,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,"Paralysed, HIt Rock",,,
Critical,1/12010,USA,xxxxxxx,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,Paralysed - Shallow,kiteforum.com,,
Fatal,23/5/2010,USA,San Francisco,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,,,,http://tinyurl.com/nzeaxhz,,
Fatal,7/10/2013,USA,NYC,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,Hit rock Seawall,,,
Fatal,23/5/11,New Caledonia,Koumac village,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,Shark attack,http://tinyurl.com/q6mtyxg,,
Fatal,6/12/2011,Vietnam,,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,,http://tinyurl.com/p9jyp7e,,
Fatal,25/7/2010,Italy,Lecco Lake,xx,,xx,,xxxxxx,Water,,Violent impact with the hull of a sailboat,http://tinyurl.com/kwaxlwh,,
Fatal,2/11/2011,Israel,Eilat,,,,,,Water,,Hit a buoy pole wearing helmet and life vest,http://tinyurl.com/k9eqmjm,,
Fatal,2/10/2008,Israel,Sdot Yam,beginner,,xx,,xxxxxx,Land,,"gust of wind swept him from shore to the roof of a home on the kibbutz, 200 meters away",http://tinyurl.com/ldj9ksm,,


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Location: The New Old West
you should hit return a few times between these horrific incidences, that is if you do not wish to

add eye strain to the list of kite and forum hazards...

space dude, use the space available to advantage.

double space twice as clear.

carry - on
fo


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:17 am 
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it will eventually be presented easy to read, compact and with extensive details available by simply hovering over that area with your mouse or finger and they pop up in a box. This is phpbb u do what u can with what u got. Screen resolutions are going up super fast right now on new devices too which is good.

Yeah they are horrific, interesting regarding land based kitesurfing lessons (i think i have read about your contempt for these is higher winds - not sure......), or shallow water based ones. My opinion has always been to minimize risk of students, by making sure they will end up in water deep enough to cushion their fall after an accidental violent pull of the bar. That means starting off in the water.


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 Post subject: Re: Open source kite fatality and critical injury database.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:30 am 
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short and sweet....

students NEED to acquire the skills to leave a beach before they are FORCED to launch from one...

sound reasonable to you?

does to me, plus getting flung a few times really adds to the respect the part.

the novice is indeed unaware of the power potential -- you can talk till you are blue about how powerful a zooming through the zone kite can be ,, but until they experience it they have no idea...

teaching respect for the activity is best done by the kite....and only sensibly done far enough from land, buoys, concrete breakwaters, pilings etc.

there can be no doubt of this....

having respect for the activity goes a long way to keeping folks alive...

any questions?

thanks
f


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