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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:21 pm 
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Self launched my 5 Rebel yesterday at beach...with my sandbag technique
Sand blowing down the beach like a blizzard....35 mph with gusts to 40
No room for error
My mind ready to let go bar...push way QR...detach myself completely from kite

Those 3 steps are the key to survival....practice them....do it

People should not have death grip on their bars with thumbs clamping the lower part

Practice holding the bar when on land with thumb over the bar like your fingers are doing

Had successful launch..and great time in the crazy water head high waves...for 2 hours

Self landing was difficult without releasing the QR but i was able to....i was so happy

Kite on beach was angled 30-45 degrees no higher to stay safe...after i launched the 5
.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
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Location: Ford Lake, Michigan
I think this accident is a "two hit". It is a pretty common way to have an accident. Here is how it works. Kiters gets lofted a little bit, he controls the kite. Hits the ground hard. At this point he is stunned, maybe he got hit on the head or maybe he trips, or maybe he lands on his stomach and gets the air knocked out of him. That's the first hit, at this point he loses control of the kite, it loops and that is where the second hit happens, maybe he crashes into a tree, sea wall or parking lot. People like to fly the kite. And it is true modern kites are very easy to fly and control. The problem is once you are on land near dangerous downwind obstacles quit flying the kite, hit the QR.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:38 pm 
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SupaEZ - not sure that self-launching a 5m in 35-40mph is a poster child for avoiding trouble. While yes you are very good at it there is still risk. Why promote this risk? Why not just do it and keep it to yourself?

Do we want beginners or intermediates reading your post and thinking "Wow that means if no one else is around I can still kite"? Even with all the safety stuff you're advocating, be ready to let go, hit QR, detach, no death grip, there is considerable risk in that crazy wind.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't post about it, this a forum for all things kitesurfing, but perhaps in another thread "Self launching in 35-40mph - how to be as safe as possible, EXPERTS ONLY".

Then start the thread by saying, "Self launching in 35-40mph carries with it considerable risk. But if you have assessed the risks and still desire to go out then here are some things I do to minimize the risk"...


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Posts: 386
As much fun as this sport is, it is sometimes hard to remember that is dangerous and unnecessary.
It is not like we are accepting a risk to hunt for food we need for survival. It is a game with a very dangerous toy.
I understand why people who sell gear and teach want to minimize the talk of risk. That is their business and i'm ok with that. As a beginner you need to have a certain attitude to even want to try this silliness and some one to say "sure you can do it".
And those of us who started with 2 line kites with no de-power or releases also say "this is so much safer than it used to be" but what beginners here is " this is safe", not what you actually said.

But remember, even as a beginner, you have CHOSEN to do a dangerous thing and there will be consequences, especially if you rush things or let your attention wander. You need to respect your choice, recognize the danger and accept the responsibility. That kite in your hand can kill you.

would you be so complacent if some one handed you a loaded gun?


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:36 pm 
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was to write it was not mainly about the QR but about rigging a 12m kite in a 9m weather and use it in a less friendly spot without the proper experience to handle unforeseen events

then just as a quick check had a look on the rated wind range for the kite in question
Attachment:
Rebel rated wing range.JPG
Rebel rated wing range.JPG [ 63.38 KIB | Viewed 450 times ]


these tables are mostly used by people new to the sport

this shit is plain wrong


Last edited by Tiago1973 on Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Agree Tiago. I wonder what North's reasoning is? The low end is about right but the top limit of my 10m Dice acc to North is 30 knots. That's 6m weather... My weight is 75 kg. One day I approached that upper limit, maybe 26 knots, and it was pure craziness. Had to ride the kite almost directly overhead with full depower. Now I could argue I "held it down" and was impressed by it's range and stability that day (17-26 knots) but as a newcomer perusing the North website I'd be thinking "Geez I only need one kite".

Maybe there's a way to restructure those charts and promote safety and correct sizing. I think kite companies would win out in the end if they explained the need to fly within the kite's "meat range" for the utmost safety of the rider. And that multiple kites are really the safest way to approach the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Kamikuza wrote:
JGTR wrote:
Since when did u see instructors teaching riding overpowered with kites that are too big, tricking right next to the beach, dangerous self launching and landing, riding too close to obstacles, riding helmet less, riding too close to other riders..........

Look in the mirror, it's the "expert" or so called "competent" riders that blame everyone else for bad standards yet fail to realise that unless they lead by example nothing will improve.

I don't see the connection between being lofted on the beach and stunting close to shore...


Seriously???

Shore is another term for beach, if you ride regularly close to the shore (or beach) then you are more likely to get lofted on the beach (or shore). Getting lofted on the shore (or beach) is more dangerous than out to sea as there are usually hard objects that you can hit. In addition being a safe distance from the shore (or beach) will give you a safety buffer allowing you more opportunity to activate your QR as more time before you hit a solid object or land.

But that doesn't really matter as my original point wasn't specifically about lofting but general bad behaviour or unsafe riding by most kitesurfer's that instructors always seem to get the blame for.

And before anyone says anything I do all those things, I just don't blame the instructors when things go wrong


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:28 pm
Posts: 179
The latest craze at my locals - is for the wakestylers to ride underneath you in the trick zone that everyones lining for... a bit like surf droppins.

If your goin for big air or loops, you do your speed height trajectory calculations - taking in the traffic flow to and from your landing zone as well as wipeout risk assessment with a kite crash... you monitor and know where everyone is behind you and down wind... they race in under you even though they know your gonna jump - but I abort and go round again.

You get used to the same dumb asses male n female who do it - needless to say there have been a few tangle ups or call outs of WTF when there all performing :duel: at maximum silly.

Experienced Kiters with their head stuck up their ass, will by example (as previously said) - teach the noobs bad habbits and get us banned eventually :wink2:

Not much courtesy on the water these days...


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:25 pm
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Location: Vancouver
Most kiteboarders who've discovered the sport within the last eight years or so wouldn't identify with the historical threat of lofting.

About ten years ago kites were typically 4-line "C" design. Though they didn't look radically different from current equivalent designs, their bar and line configurations were evolving rapidly... until about 2005, after which bar configuration changes became relatively subtle.

Early last decade it was customary to launch a kite unhooked. There were chicken loops but they were considered too dangerous to hook onto harnesses until under way, away from land. There were also normally fixed loops attached to the bars, similar to those on windsurfer booms, for powered riding. Fortunately, depower straps were normally included, but were of limited effectiveness while launching or riding unhooked.

Launching a kite unhooked had a couple of implications:

1. It was impossible to safely launch a particular kite in anywhere near the wind strength possible today.

2. Getting lofted, if confronted with certain conditions, could involve a long, high ride, similar to paragliding. There is/was a video somewhere of such an occurrence (in Maui, I think), lasting the majority of a minute, ending with a (non-fatal) crash into the side of a hill.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:44 pm 
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the problem is the lack of education towards danger.
For most schools it is more important to get the people going then them being safe.
Courses should be longer and have more education about safety and weather.
Using the quick release should be first thing to learn, not flying the kite and the wind window stuff.

Do you know how many people launch and land their kite with a board in their hand?
I would say 80% ! That is insane!

Why didn't I get hurt yet launching totally powered? Because I pay attention to distance, no obstacles close by, my hand on the release during landing and launching.
One hand in the center for slowly steering (yes, even with an 18 trimmed slow!).

Just always be prepared for a problem so you can anticipate it and be safe.
Don't just throw up the kite and "I can handle it".

Be safe!!!


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