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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:26 pm 
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For sure awesome advice. Very simple stuff their that your local school does not necessarily even teach.

This guy had been riding for a year - referenced in that thread.

I primarily believe in self responsibility, not limited to your own safety, but to other around you also.

I am making no blame for this particular situation, I just don't know enough to have a reasonable opinion right now - just really hoping he pulls through..

However I do think the commercial side of kiteboarding needs to be very careful how it markets itself today . It has a moral responsibility for honesty and transparency when it comes to kiteboarding safety. My opinion is that with the increased commercial gain potential in kiteboarding, that commercial interests are putting their bottom line ahead of the interests of kiteboarders (new and current). I am seeing it more and more in marketing material.

Over 50% of critical injuries and fatalities occur on land - and this is a water based sport - a unique situation.

And why? Because it is a kite sport - we are pilots in control of a very capable flying wing that can fly you hundreds of feet with one simple 45 degree turn of the bar -deliberate or accidental. People need to respect and be aware of that. I don't think kiteboarding even compares to some other sports with regards to safety risk, but it has its own level of risk that needs to be respected and educated all the same. The next person that says to me that kiteboarding is sailing is gonna piss me off big time - it shows a great deal of disrespect in my view!


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:34 am 
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Problem in US is that lessons are way too expensive. And with the proliferation of YouTube videos and DVDs people buy a kite first in ebay and then worry about instruction.
Many people know how to jump, handlepass, loop but they have no idea how to self rescue and how to walk the kite in high winds.
I used to hate what they enforced at Crandon in Miami but now I think that asking every rider to have a Pasa/Iko/real z2h camp certificate is the only way to keep the beach safe.

Kite companies are also hugely responsible. I keep seeing triple loop, 10ft barrel riding in their website but very little instructional videos on how to use safety system in the kites or do a self rescue. Instructions booklet coming with kites are embarrassing.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:44 am 
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Toby wrote:
the problem is the lack of education towards danger.
For most schools it is more important to get the people going then them being safe.
Courses should be longer and have more education about safety and weather.
Using the quick release should be first thing to learn, not flying the kite and the wind window stuff.

Do you know how many people launch and land their kite with a board in their hand?
I would say 80% ! That is insane!

Why didn't I get hurt yet launching totally powered? Because I pay attention to distance, no obstacles close by, my hand on the release during landing and launching.
One hand in the center for slowly steering (yes, even with an 18 trimmed slow!).

Just always be prepared for a problem so you can anticipate it and be safe.
Don't just throw up the kite and "I can handle it".

Be safe!!!

Great advice, every beginner should QR before they launch it takes 1 minute,and may save there life,i always do this, you know if QR is ok and it helps with muscle memory if something should go wrong,TONY


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:45 am 
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Location: L.A. & Ventura Counties, CA
.
Toby wrote:
the problem is the lack of education towards danger.
For most schools it is more important to get the people going then them being safe.
Courses should be longer and have more education about safety and weather.
Using the quick release should be first thing to learn, not flying the kite and the wind window stuff.

Do you know how many people launch and land their kite with a board in their hand?
I would say 80% ! That is insane!

Why didn't I get hurt yet launching totally powered? Because I pay attention to distance, no obstacles close by, my hand on the release during landing and launching.
One hand in the center for slowly steering (yes, even with an 18 trimmed slow!).

Just always be prepared for a problem so you can anticipate it and be safe.
Don't just throw up the kite and "I can handle it".

Be safe!!!


1. For most schools it is more important to get the people going then them being safe.
TRUE. But if a business is going to stay reasonably solvent, it must provide a service that is DESIRED and prospects DON'T WANT SAFETY INSTRUCTION. They don't even want to learn about the equipment.

I don't even think the extra cost of the time consuming safety instruction is even the main reason.

Besides the fact that people are so dumbed down that it is HARD for them to THINK, they have learned to IGNORE anything that interferes with what they WANT to believe. They WANT to believe that it's EASY and safe and it requires THOUGHT for them to critically analyze the many facts involved. It is much less WORK to simply BELIEVE the endless industry propaganda, especially when experienced kiters do actually make it LOOK easy and safe (the rare prospect that actually SEES an accident, tends to no longer BE a prospect). Throw in the "monkey-see, monkey-do" tendency, and it's easy to understand why 80%+ launch and land their kite with a board in their hand. However, I'll call it like it is - it is not "insane" - it is just plain STUPID.

Just always be prepared for a problem so you can anticipate it and be safe.
CORRECT. Unfortunately, it requires THOUGHT. HOPING that they can "just throw up the kite and "I can handle it".", requires NO THOUGHT and USUALLY works (at least until it DOESN'T).

There is so much idiot stuff going on that I rarely say anything anymore but yesterday I saw 2 out of 4 kiters launch their kites without having a leash attached - within 10' upwind of a 2'concrete wall, which is between a bike path with people and pets, which is between a parking lot with concrete curbs and light posts, which is between a chain link fence etc. Also downwind are a 2ft high fence made of 1/2" upright metal posts guiding a steel cable, many head-sized rocks and several 3-4ft hurricane fences. Furthermore, the beach was 300ft+ wide and the m0r0ns could have had AT LEAST 100' buffer AND ALL of them launched TOWARDS the obstacles instead of the less dangerous water.

At any rate, when I saw one of the 4 didn't HAVE a kite leash, I couldn't resist asking him if he had one. Since I was just in shorts and he wasn't sure if I was a kiter, he pointed to his red line attachment at the CL and said that was his leash. When I then asked him if he knew what the purpose of a leash was, he said he didn't want to argue and walked away. Incidentally, there are surfers downwind, the beach is popular with non-kiters (especially dog owners) and further downwind is a wall of jagged rip-rap (big rocks), and on the other side is another parking lot and about 1/4 mile a busy pier.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:46 am 
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Tiago1973 wrote:
was to write it was not mainly about the QR but about rigging a 12m kite in a 9m weather and use it in a less friendly spot without the proper experience to handle unforeseen events

then just as a quick check had a look on the rated wind range for the kite in question
Attachment:
Rebel rated wing range.JPG


these tables are mostly used by people new to the sport

this shit is plain wrong


I agree this is friggin ridiculous if you are skilled, you SHOULD be able to HOLD DOWN the kite in at that wind under good condtions. But it sure as hell should be OUTSIDE the RECOMMENDED wind range, I fly this exact make of kite and in 20+ knots, I'm well powered on a 6m at 190lbs. Could I hold down a 12 at 28 knots......maybe?...by about 24 knots I feel pretty damn uncomfortable on a 9m rebel and go to get my 6m never been stupid enough to have a 12 up in those conditions.

Smooth trade winds in Brazil...if you're toby, ...probably not an issue. in most other locations, pretty damn sketchy.

Anyone shows up at my local spot and starts pumping a kite of that size in those winds (where it's usually pretty gusty) I assume the guys an idiot and am going to do my best to stop him.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:51 am 
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If your area is becoming risk because of cowboys, there is really no option but to create guidelines and use social pressure/ self policing using riders born with good diplomatic ability - the old school threatening manners is often proven to fail as people are likely to fight back harder because they got their back up just making everyones life a misery. The next stage after that is not a good one because you are involving someone that knows nothing about kiteboarding and things can go quickly downhill.

Maybe kiteboarding is at that stage where the kiteboarding community comes together and creates guidelines without conflict of interest commercial involvement. It is a shame if it is at that stage, but I see kiteboarding increasingly being forced into that position as it becomes more popular and more cowboys seeing a money making opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:10 am 
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JGTR wrote:
Seriously???

Shore is another term for beach, if you ride regularly close to the shore (or beach) then you are more likely to get lofted on the beach (or shore). Getting lofted on the shore (or beach) is more dangerous than out to sea as there are usually hard objects that you can hit. In addition being a safe distance from the shore (or beach) will give you a safety buffer allowing you more opportunity to activate your QR as more time before you hit a solid object or land.

But that doesn't really matter as my original point wasn't specifically about lofting but general bad behaviour or unsafe riding by most kitesurfer's that instructors always seem to get the blame for.

And before anyone says anything I do all those things, I just don't blame the instructors when things go wrong

Gotcha.

In my mind, the "lofting on the beach" is someone standing on the beach with his kite at 12... stunting near the shore are the asshats who are close enough to tomahawk their kite on the beach while still being in the water.

You're right; monkey see, monkey do... and so we have a never ending cycle of people making a nuisance of themselves at the shoreline. Aside from the danger, it especially sucks when you're trying to get upwind and suddenly there's a kiter and lines right in your way... tack back to the shore and fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu...


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:52 am 
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RichardM wrote:
.

At any rate, when I saw one of the 4 didn't HAVE a kite leash, I couldn't resist asking him if he had one. Since I was just in shorts and he wasn't sure if I was a kiter, he pointed to his red line attachment at the CL and said that was his leash. When I then asked him if he knew what the purpose of a leash was, he said he didn't want to argue and walked away.

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET


The rest of what you said is fine.

If that guy was flying a 2009 Cabrinha, then he answered your question correctly and told you where his kite leash was.

I've had someone ask me the same question when flying a 2009 Cabrinha.


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:00 pm 
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on the North table is not only about the ridiculous higher end, it´s also about the perceived sweet spot - someone with less experience may conclude that for the 12m is 20 knts ((28+12)/2)


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 Post subject: Re: Lofting/Deadly Dragging
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:29 pm 
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Tiago1973 wrote:
on the North table is not only about the ridiculous higher end, it´s also about the perceived sweet spot - someone with less experience may conclude that for the 12m is 20 knts ((28+12)/2)

It is for me. At least 20 knots on a 12...


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