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Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

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BCKiter123
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Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby BCKiter123 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:16 pm

Just getting into jumping and experienced something amazing yesterday. Coming down from the jump, there was a momentary and secondary lift that really slowed my descent, almost as if floating. Perhaps it was a gust or maybe I moved my kite in a certain way to cause this? I have no idea, I was just trying to avoid landing flat on my face lol. But if there's a technique to recreate this secondary lift to soften my landings, please do tell.... Thanks!

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby Toby » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:23 pm

By moving your kite over the zenith, you could create more hangtime, not really like a lift.

A secondary lift can happen when a gust hits you...it is an awesome feeling.

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby jeromeL » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:54 pm

BCKiter123 wrote:Just getting into jumping and experienced something amazing yesterday. Coming down from the jump, there was a momentary and secondary lift that really slowed my descent, almost as if floating. Perhaps it was a gust or maybe I moved my kite in a certain way to cause this? I have no idea, I was just trying to avoid landing flat on my face lol. But if there's a technique to recreate this secondary lift to soften my landings, please do tell.... Thanks!

Glad you are enjoying. Just keep practicing you will eventually understand a bit more. There are many scenarios that could explain some sort of lift on way down. Most likely you went from no lift/falling (either kite too far back, or swinging under it) to a situation where kite had power (closer to 12 and a bit deeper in window) and therefore gliding down instead of falling like a stone haha.
You really need to keep the kite flying in front of you, it is easier with proper take off / pop. because you won't swing under kite and can pretty much keep it overhead. But at the beginning you often swing under kite and loose power (kite is upwind of you), it is important to move the kite left and right keeping it near 12 downwind of you.
The problem is that when you learn you get scared and just want to keep the kite at 12 but that often results in crashing on your back.
As you get more comfortable you need to learn landing loop. That will really teach you to understand where kite needs to be to create lift and get you comfortable diving it deep in window for proper landing. You can lookup steps to work on small jump downloop transition and work your way up from there once you can land small jump consistently.

Though there are some legitimate case where I have experienced secondary boost:
- sheet in after take off, now I usually on pop but when i was learning I would do it afterward. create boost on way up.
- as you go up and send kite forward to 12 and a gust comes in. kite is still deep climbing to 12 that will generate quite a lot of power when that gust hit. When that happens, I usually sheet out else kite stays deep and you will land with tons of downwind speed.
- as you come down and do a perfectly timed landing loop where kite accelerate from back to 12 then loop down right overhead, you will kind of bounce back up then land with no water splashing whatsoever! I have had that happen only a handful of time, probably had some gusts involved..

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby BCKiter123 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:47 pm

Thanks for your responses.
jeromeL wrote:But at the beginning you often swing under kite and loose power (kite is upwind of you), it is important to move the kite left and right keeping it near 12 downwind of you.

Yes this is happening to me often. I think when I mis-time sending of the kite and I lose my edge, I end up swinging under the kite

jeromeL wrote:As you get more comfortable you need to learn landing loop. That will really teach you to understand where kite needs to be to create lift and get you comfortable diving it deep in window for proper landing. You can lookup steps to work on small jump downloop transition and work your way up from there once you can land small jump consistently.


Quick clarification. I can already do downloop transitions consistently, so is the 'jump downloop transition' exactly the same thing except with a jump? Terminology sometimes confuses me. So if I'm left foot forward, once I'm in the air I'll pull on my left hand to make the kite go from about 11o'clock to 6 to 1. This will send me 'somewhat' in the opposite direction ( as the kite is moving through the power zone and going to pull me 'mostly' downwind), so I just have to spot my landing and switch my feet, aim downwind, then edge upwind again after I land?

I assume it's also possible to loop the kite on the other side (pull right hand), as I've seen in some videos, to complete a full loop instead of half loop. Just wondering which one you were referring to/suggesting for starting out.

Thanks again, I find that visualizing what I need to do beforehand helps!

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby jeromeL » Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:49 pm

BCKiter123 wrote:Thanks for your responses.

Quick clarification. I can already do downloop transitions consistently, so is the 'jump downloop transition' exactly the same thing except with a jump? Terminology sometimes confuses me. So if I'm left foot forward, once I'm in the air I'll pull on my left hand to make the kite go from about 11o'clock to 6 to 1. This will send me 'somewhat' in the opposite direction ( as the kite is moving through the power zone and going to pull me 'mostly' downwind), so I just have to spot my landing and switch my feet, aim downwind, then edge upwind again after I land?

I assume it's also possible to loop the kite on the other side (pull right hand), as I've seen in some videos, to complete a full loop instead of half loop. Just wondering which one you were referring to/suggesting for starting out.

Thanks again, I find that visualizing what I need to do beforehand helps!

Before you try make sure you can do a 6 feet jump with low speed going straight up and loosing almost no ground. I would probably avoid a 12m on high range at first, maybe try 10 on less medium power. Later you can do it on any kite size even 18m since timing of loop doesn't matter at all.

First step is to do some downloop transition without jump but with a jump it is slightly different because kite is back whereas with a transition kite is forward before you downloop it.
To learn downloop you go for a small jump like 3-5 feet, try to jump straight up. Right after take off kite should be back passed 12 so instead of pulling front hand to redirect kite forward slowly you pull hard. Kite will turn first to 12 then aggressively dive and complete the half loop, you need to make sure you land with board straight downwind and you can ride the other way since kite is heading the other way now.
As you get more comfortable you go higher.
It doesn't matter when and how high you are when you initiate downloop but it s better to do it at first when you are coming back down at 6 feet or so.
The important thing is to have the kite slightly back instead of at 12 when you pull front hand hard.
If kite is at 12 pointing up it will turn slowly and dive pretty deep. If the kite is back it will first turn toward 12 then dive which will make it loop above your head.
I say it doesn't matter when you initiate downloop because if it is late then the kite will just travel to 12 and you will land while kite start to head down which is exactly how you land a normal jump... then you can decide to finish downloop or not.
if you do it late the downloop will actually loop all the way with kite heading back to 12 before you hit water, you can keep pulling or pull other hand as you land. or do another loop! ;)

Next step is to do a landing loop with back ("other" ;)) hand, it's exactly same thing. I usually do those when I go higher or if I want to continue riding the same way. Once you go up before reaching apex I like to send kite back forward aggressively to give you that floaty feel.
Key point is once kite is forward passed 12 then you can pull back hand hard. As kite starts to loop it will first go to 12 and loop overhead.

You can visualize easily that initial position of kite prior to trigger down or back kiteloop is important. For landing loop you want kite to be over head "heliloop" so kite needs to start a bit back or front depending on which hand you pull.
Because you jump straight up and land straight downwind it really doesn't matter if you loop left or right only thing that matter is position of kite and direction it's heading prior to pulling trigger.

You will really improve the way you fly kite once you can do those. It will also help you to recover from bad jump take off to slow down horizontal speed and recover from unwanted rotation.
As you jump higher with smaller kite it's the only way to land smoothly.

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby BCKiter123 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:42 pm

Jerome, what an awesome post. Thanks so much for your time and detail given. I'm gonna give these a go soon!

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby mr moon » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:44 pm

Had a lovely second lift on my last session from a gust, and I second Toby on what an awesome feeling that was!!!

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby plummet » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:48 pm

Powered up In on/cross/on conditions with a head high kicker I quite like to rip at the kicker and smash off the lip while the kite is still climbing. So there's no lift from the kite initially. But the speed and kicker still give you a good 10 foot of height. Then time the kite send for when you hit the apex of your ramp jump (send a bit further back than usual), Bar in hard and whamo, Secondary lift. A very cool sensation. Then the kite is quite a way back, redirect hard as hell or downloop/heli loop landing. Usually you land fast as hell but super smooth sometimes slack lining the kite on landing.

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby jeromeL » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:20 pm

plummet wrote:Powered up In on/cross/on conditions with a head high kicker I quite like to rip at the kicker and smash off the lip while the kite is still climbing. So there's no lift from the kite initially. But the speed and kicker still give you a good 10 foot of height. Then time the kite send for when you hit the apex of your ramp jump (send a bit further back than usual), Bar in hard and whamo, Secondary lift. A very cool sensation. Then the kite is quite a way back, redirect hard as hell or downloop/heli loop landing. Usually you land fast as hell but super smooth sometimes slack lining the kite on landing.


I used to do those prior to learning proper sent jump, I would pop then send kite. (learned pop prior to sent kite jump)
Now I only do those when I screw up timing and pop when kite is still being sent to 12, it results with a very long jump with tons of initial cross wind speed! I usually like to send it back to 12 and a bit back then I do a back handed kiteloop but I start the loop from back there so it does a loop on the side of window (a bit like a slow dark/hand slide loop) instead of overhead and slows down my cross wind speed then I land downwind. Sometimes I also do heliloop with back hand overhead which redirect the crosswind speed more downwind which is more manageable to land.
I feel like a downloop (front hand) landing while still carrying a lot of cross wind speed wouldn't work that well unless you have kept kite back long enough to slow down significantly.
Anyway that's a great example of why learning landing loop is so great, gives you a lot of option to land safely.

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Re: Jumping-secondary lift (hangtime)

Postby mr moon » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:08 pm

plummet wrote:Powered up In on/cross/on conditions with a head high kicker I quite like to rip at the kicker and smash off the lip while the kite is still climbing. So there's no lift from the kite initially. But the speed and kicker still give you a good 10 foot of height. Then time the kite send for when you hit the apex of your ramp jump (send a bit further back than usual), Bar in hard and whamo, Secondary lift. A very cool sensation. Then the kite is quite a way back, redirect hard as hell or downloop/heli loop landing. Usually you land fast as hell but super smooth sometimes slack lining the kite on landing.

Sweet..... Do you also edge upwind as you are climbing the kicker??? :D


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