New kites and liability insurance.

[Tiago1973]

I would rather like to have a discussion about what people think of kite companies having a liability insurance, but guess ..not.

Not an expert but don´t think a scale up bridle would just translate into an over-sheeted kite. Even if the line lengths are corrected I´m thinking about how the distance between the tow point and the aerodynamic center will be outside the intended design, as such all the acting moments and consequently ´how´ the kite will fly.

In the end I very much doubt that I would be able to identify a messed up bridle if I am given half an hour to fly a kite I got no experience with, in particular if my test trial is to fly the damn thing in a (lower than) low wind condition.

I doubt that 99% of the riders I know or the people who write here would be able to identify the messed up bridle in the same circumstances.

Also the given ´keep it safe´ suggestion to spend half an hour flying and tuning a brand new kite in land does not make much sense to me, as there is not much tuning outside the flying wind envelop and powered kites are better flown in the water.

Glad the dude is fine.

[KiteboardingTampaBay]

I'd like to share a story about my formerly favorite brand, Slingshot. In 2013, I had a quiver of Rallys to teach on and supposed to be the "go-to guy" for SS in our area. I was pretty stoked to be back on SS, especially given the local politics between shops that had kept me off their gear for a few years.
The problems began when I first rigged the 12m using a brand new 20" bar straight from the factory. When I launched the kite, it flew very quickly to the right side of the wind window and crashed. If you put the kite at 12:00, the bar was at a 45 degree angle. The same exact problem happened with the other 20" bar I had, so that should be a clue that something isn't right at the factory. Of course, the first thing I did was check all line lengths and measured all bridle segments to make sure they matched.
I contacted my partner shop and the SS rep to inform them of the problem, and all I got was the runaround "Check your line lengths" and blah, blah, blah. Here I am trying to report a potential very serious safety issue and was COMPLETELY blown off. I dealt with those 2 wonky bars for an entire season of lessons and all of my customers and local kiters saw it. I would get through the setup and rigging part of the lesson, put the kite in the air, and have to put it back down again and switch bars. I ended up using the 23" bar on all the kites. Now who the F is going to buy a kite like that?
I have seen this exact problem on several other 2013 20" SS bars.
Now, as I said in the beginning, Slingshot has always been my favorite brand, and we all know they had excellent customer service for years. I don't know WTF happened over there but being completely blown off like I was, I will never recommend their products again.
Slingshot, please get your heads out of your arses and realize what it is that made you a successful brand.

[james]

Tell me, how does changing a bar length ( not adjusting lines,leaders or pigtails) suddenly remove a 45degree bar angle issue?

20"width to 23" and all fixed?

How does that even make sense? From what you have said you did to make the kite safe to fly you could have checked the length of lines on your 20" bars.

And if the kites were still unsafe to fly WTF were you doing teaching on them still?

If the canopy was twisted the le twisted or bridles the wrong length then that same issue would be there regardless of the bar length.

[Dr Makani]

Also the given ´keep it safe´ suggestion to spend half an hour flying and tuning a brand new kite in land does not make much sense to me, as there is not much tuning outside the flying wind envelop and powered kites are better flown in the water.

I kinda' feel responsible for that statement since I brought it up early on. I think we are having a good discussion about something most of us don't have in mind when we suit up. Kiting is a different universe - grass-rooty, disconnected with the establishment ...
There is no 30min-rule for new kites. I get that. But the moment you step back into society after your session and have to testify in front of a jurty, the question will come up of 'how much time did you spent with your product to ensure a safe operation?' - Bumm
Some of us will think 5 min is enough, some of us none at all. All's handy-dandy if you don't plan to ever go in front of group of street people (aka jury) who are absolute ignorant about what we do (and even hostile - perhaps?).

I think we all have a different, but comprehensive understanding of safety in our water world. But for my part I am aware that I have to justify some of my doing with some land lubbers, sometimes. If you plan to ever sue a manufacturer for any wrongdoing you need to start to think about that.

peace

[Kamikuza]

Many brands print a disclaimer on the kite or in the manual, something to the effect of "rigging and launching this kite means you accept responsibility" blah blah... but I can't believe they intend that to cover manufacturing defects - and a complete lack of QA!!!

It's that final step that they're skipping to cut costs because they're think they can rely on all the very simple steps of construction and assembly being completed correctly... we all know human error is a factor that shouldn't be ignored before putting the gear in the box and sending it out.

Either that, or it's simply the price you pay for making gear in China... cos they just don't give a f***.

[RichardM]

.
I haven't read every post so perhaps someone has already mentioned the below observation.

I saw that several posters alleged that Caution does not have liability insurance. However, it is unlikely that anyone could know this without going through the discovery process of a lawsuit or at least receiving this statement from their attorneys. Since it is perfectly legal for attorneys to LIE like rugs, the discovery process is more reliable (although still not infallible).

A company might well lie about not having liability insurance because it tells the potential plaintiff's potential attorney(s) that there is a LOT more work involved for various reasons AND there is a very high likelihood that any judgment (way down the road and after LOTS of actual WORK) won't be worth squat.

This means that a potential plaintiff's potential attorney(s) will NOT take the case on contingency (plaintiff pays relatively little up front). Instead, they will require a "retainer" of anywhere from $5,000 and UP which will have to be constantly fed MORE funds with no guarantee whatsoever (other than the unwritten assurance that the plaintiff is being gouged to the max).

The foregoing means that unless the plaintiff IS an attorney or has a trustworthy one (about the same odds as having a 15" pecker), or is already wealthy, he EFFECTIVELY HAS NO LEGAL RECOURSE. (If he was already wealthy, much more than the $65,000 I saw mentioned would be involved).

Richard M.
Malibu Kitesurfing - since 2002
(310) - 430 - KITE (5483)
http://www.MalibuKitesurfing.NET
kfRichard@MalibuKitesurfing.NET

[BWD]

Richard I am celebrating 2014 by agreeing with you!
Happy New Year!

[barrybarryr]

On the face of it, given the information that we know, if a solicitor (lawyer/attorney to anyone not in the UK) couldn't get damages against Caution they shouldn't be practising.

The product was defective and the injuries resulted from the defective product. I accept there may have been some contributory element, but there isn't enough information from the initial post to establish this.

I can't understand how people are defending Caution on this, or claiming that it is the fault of the OP.

Nobody measures the size of the bridle when they buy a kite, nor should they be expected to. If anyone claims they do, I don't believe you. It would be unreasonable to anticipate or expect customers to do this, I mean nobody takes the wheels off and checks the brakes or looks at the steering rack when they buy a new car.

People are saying that he should have known better when he tried the kite for the first time and the kite felt powered. It was a new kite, how would he be able to gauge what is and what isn't powerful for this particular type/shape of kite? Kites have difference performance characteristics.

Ultimately Caution should have insurance and they should be made to pay.

[Tiago1973]

I kinda' feel responsible for that statement since I brought it up early on.

yes. to a point..

But the moment you step back into society after your session and have to testify in front of a jurty, the question will come up of 'how much time did you spent with your product to ensure a safe operation?' - Bumm

I´d argue that there is "safe, there is "operation", but there is not "safe operation".

Not in absolute terms when a kite is up in the air being flown close to his operational wind range.

Please note that I belief in risk mitigation, but from what I read in the original forum the guy did what is reasonable any of us to do if with a new kite.

Guess after events any could always point out some extra mile that didn´t take place, but then this is a bit like cheating…


In any case the thread was about kite companies having liability insurance, seem some of them have it, some others do not.

This was something I never put much though into and as such a bit of a surprise. Still uncertain on what I think about it…

[BWD]

The same fact ,so hard to learn:
If they carry insurance, it protects them, not you.
You could only ever access their policy after winning a court fight, or some arbitration involving lawyers etc., which could take several years and $100k's, or more.
If a company fears potential goodwill loss, or perceives a big legal risk, they might offer you some settlement without a court fight. That would be because it involved the injured party signing an NDA and cost the Co. less than a law suit.
This is in the US.
Elsewhere, although some places may favor the injured somehow, parties' motivations are the same and there may also be some other hangups in the victims' way, for example the "loser pays" rule.