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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:00 pm 
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Okay, seems I will have to pull this back on track

What I am suggesting is a company that make bars to order, if you want to buy kits then go ahead and tinker if you don't want to, then have it assembled and shipped ready to use.

El Rudo, there is nothing a kite company could do that could not be offered as a modification to a standard bar, and those modification can be done by the factory if bar parts are standardized. All the parts just have to connect in the same fashion... they don't have to be made by the same company.
I am not saying there is only one chickenloop or one depower method or specific amount of throw... all of this is a choice, so say you have 3 or 4 chickenloops to choose from and 3 or 4 bar choices, what else is left... 4-6 trim methods and 3 or 4 flag systems (imho this is bs, there should only be one (single center line flag), but I suppose some people will always want the choice)

amount of trim, amount of throw, line lengths and flag method are all optional, its nothing more then a longer or shorter piece of rope....
...and kook proofing... roflmao any idiot that cannot figure out which line goes where should not be kiting to begin with and you can fix this easily with a 3" gender bender (pig tail with both options).

then kite companies could instead of spending time, money and effort duplicating the same process of designing, and manufacturing and distributing could concentrate on kites, which is what they are good at... they are obviously not good at building bars for the most part... otherwise the above choices would already be available.....


Last edited by Laughingman on Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:15 pm 
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I often wonder who these geniuses are who are "designing these products. What makes a guy sitting on a computer with a software program designing kites qualified to do the design work on bars? Are all these small companies doing it themselves? Do they sub out the engineering? Are they just pulling stock parts out of a catalog? R & D, trial and error ? Flying by the seat of their pants? Seems a little sketchy to me, but I'm just a dummy.


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:23 pm 
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sure Laughingdude, we're more on the same page here than you might think. I'm just saying that kite companies will sell bars, as part of the kite package. This is easiest for 80% of the market and will bring an extra $ plus some bargaining margin to their deal. Most brands are suffering so let them make their money (off other guys of course). Pre-set bars, ready to fly kinda stuff you want starters and non-tinkerers to use.
All this doesn't mean there could be place for a few Shimano/Campagnolo-like brands, that supply great hw, well engineered and manufactured in serious numbers, buy it as a spare or let the kite brands slap their logo next to it. To some extend, CamCleat, Ronstan and rope factories are doing a bit of this, imo there's room for more.

@ pj sofine, fyi I'm one of those geniuses :D. There a bunch of good industrial design engineers out there working on bars, happily reading along and most of them not posting. :bye:
Like Geronimo says, it's a hell of a lot of work to come up with something good, way harder than what you'd think.


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:27 pm 
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El Rudo wrote:
@ pj sofine, fyi I'm one of those geniuses :D. There a bunch of good industrial design engineers out there working on bars, happily reading along and most of them not posting. :bye:
Like Geronimo says, it's a hell of a lot of work to come up with something good, way harder than what you'd think.

Good to know we're in good hands! :thumb: Design on!


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:33 pm 
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pj sofine wrote:
I often wonder who these geniuses are who are "designing these products. What makes a guy sitting on a computer with a software program designing kites qualified to do the design work on bars? Are all these small companies doing it themselves? Do they sub out the engineering? Are they just pulling stock parts out of a catalog? R & D, trial and error ? Flying by the seat of their pants? Seems a little sketchy to me, but I'm just a dummy.


Really good point. And from what I have seen publicly posted so far by a few kite companies... is that is exactly what is happening. I would go as far and say the factories may even be providing some engineering assistance to the smaller ones, who better to help reduce costs but the people that are going to source, mold and assemble it for you?


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:05 pm 
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El Rudo wrote:
sure Laughingdude, we're more on the same page here than you might think. I'm just saying that kite companies will sell bars, as part of the kite package. This is easiest for 80% of the market and will bring an extra $ plus some bargaining margin to their deal. Most brands are suffering so let them make their money (off other guys of course). Pre-set bars, ready to fly kinda stuff you want starters and non-tinkerers to use.
All this doesn't mean there could be place for a few Shimano/Campagnolo-like brands, that supply great hw, well engineered and manufactured in serious numbers, buy it as a spare or let the kite brands slap their logo next to it. To some extend, CamCleat, Ronstan and rope factories are doing a bit of this, imo there's room for more.

@ pj sofine, fyi I'm one of those geniuses :D. There a bunch of good industrial design engineers out there working on bars, happily reading along and most of them not posting. :bye:
Like Geronimo says, it's a hell of a lot of work to come up with something good, way harder than what you'd think.


Glad we are on the same page, and thanks for not just reading along!
Obviously it took years for bars to evolve to where they are at, and there are some components that work really well but just need some tweaking... but it seems once they go to market with something they are done designing and changes come slow... unfortunate really,

The only company that seems to really make any really innovative changes lately is Cabrinha with their width adjustment, if they just figured out how to make the release easier to assemble and changed from a closed loop to one that opens they would have a winner!


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:09 pm 
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Laughingman wrote:
El Rudo wrote:
sure Laughingdude, we're more on the same page here than you might think. I'm just saying that kite companies will sell bars, as part of the kite package. This is easiest for 80% of the market and will bring an extra $ plus some bargaining margin to their deal. Most brands are suffering so let them make their money (off other guys of course). Pre-set bars, ready to fly kinda stuff you want starters and non-tinkerers to use.
All this doesn't mean there could be place for a few Shimano/Campagnolo-like brands, that supply great hw, well engineered and manufactured in serious numbers, buy it as a spare or let the kite brands slap their logo next to it. To some extend, CamCleat, Ronstan and rope factories are doing a bit of this, imo there's room for more.

@ pj sofine, fyi I'm one of those geniuses :D. There a bunch of good industrial design engineers out there working on bars, happily reading along and most of them not posting. :bye:
Like Geronimo says, it's a hell of a lot of work to come up with something good, way harder than what you'd think.


Glad we are on the same page, and thanks for not just reading along!
Obviously it took years for bars to evolve to where they are at, and there are some components that work really well but just need some tweaking... but it seems once they go to market with something they are done designing and changes come slow... unfortunate really,

The only company that seems to really make any really innovative changes lately is Cabrinha with their width adjustment, if they just figured out how to make the release easier to assemble and changed from a closed loop to one that opens they would have a winner!


haha width adjustable bars are soooo 2013!


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:14 pm 
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Absolutely true and they came late to the table.... but Cabs method is so unique and so easy to use, no one has even come close to a design like this... that I know of anyhow


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:46 am 
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MrChevere wrote:
i recently spoke to the owner of a windsurf product company that is getting into the kite business. he said developing a bar took more time and money than his kites.


Wow really? Can you tell him to offer me a job? I've been designing better bars in my head since i started kiting with that wonderful 2007 Naish bar with the click on stopper that ATE HOLES IN THE BAR and the chicken loop the didn't allow you to replace the center line without being a professional seamstress. That stopper was the dumbest thing i've ever seen on a kite bar, well actually its next to the original eclipse clam cleat stopper that likes to slide around and engage itself at random intervals. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Why are kite companies still selling bars?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:23 am 
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When I consider the perfect bar for me, I wonder if you guys go through the same process. If you could take this part from this bar, that from another...it would be ideal. What I am saying is it seems I cannot find the perfect bar setup as I like aspects from all the bars produced but I can't find them on one damn bar.

I agree with a customised solution. But then again as someone said not everyone has the know how to put it together even if they did get all the parts. Could offer a premium if crew wanted them put together before sending I suppose.

...on that though, I have to say the new switch bar gets damn close to how I'd design a bar. Simple and effective. (Note I don't have a switch bar nor use their kites so this is not a biased
Plug). Have just found out though the stopper locks on via a clip you use and it won't move at all and nor is the pressure adjustable. This is a flaw in my mind and needs addressing.


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