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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:25 pm 
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Location: The Naki
Hook up your ozone bar westeppo and do some testing for us.

Let us know what differences (if any) you find to the kites performance.


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:14 am 
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fdvj wrote:
The mod is like the Ozone safety connection with a stopper ball and a stainless steel ring, The single centre grey line larks heads to the stainless ring, one of the front lines also larks heads to the front ring, The other goes through the stopper ball and larks heads to the red line.It must be a perfect fit so stop it slipping through under load.
There is someone who does this locally but as with any mod you need to understand how it works and test it for your self.



Pictures ?? Number to call? Although must admit I'm kind of used to the system now, used to riding along with one hand having to put a finger between the long red safety line, the other spinning the iron heart the right way....gets tricky in the ocean....lol! Also when ya spin the bar take a moment before you pull what you think is the right side!! High Y gives a floppyish bar that may over/under spin....but as I said I'm getting used to it.

I know I know plumett. Every time I go down my bro doesn't have his c4 bar with him!! And I don't want to use my zephyr bar with 27m lines.


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:09 am
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Location: Hood River
Just for those looking for some explanations on North's front line "Y" and why we choose to use the system that we do...

Ken has actually given some thoughts on this before... viewtopic.php?t=2381966&p=809545...
Just to save you the click, he said this about front Y length... "The high V makes the kite slightly more stable and gives it a more compact feel. Lower V, slightly less stable but slightly more consistent tension on back lines."

That was in September. More recently, Ralf tells me that we continue to learn more about the differences between Y heights and at this point we're getting conflicting results from different designs and we don't have anything specific or simple to declare about how the different line setups affect different kites.

As far as our safety... When we last redesigned our 4-line bar we were looking for the safest method available, and we found that our kites, and those of other brands, were often going into "death spirals" when released to a single front line. Therefore we found the dual-front line with the mini-5th to be the best system available at the time. Before people start jumping all over me, I'm aware that there are many kites now that work perfectly well with a single front line release. This includes some North kites.

We have been testing both single front line and alternate styles of release for years and will continue to do so. However, if we move to a single front line or other system that is not compatible with our current system it will cause significant confusion. At this point, all of our 4-line kites from 2006 through 2014 are compatible with all of our 4-line bars from the same time period. Same with our 5-line kites/bars. As much as some of you may think a single front line system would be safer/easier, there are many many people, customers and schools, who love our 2-front line system and who will be furious if we switch, as it will require buying all new bars with any new kites and vice versa. If we made that move I can almost guarantee there will be someone on this forum who will ask about reverse-compatibility, and someone else who will respond with some comment about how North just wants to milk the customer by requiring the purchase of a new bar with the new kite instead of keeping it simple stupid.

On top of that, many of our spare parts are compatible between many years. Some small changes in our designs over the years means that not all spares work on all bars, but there is a lot of overlap making it easier for distributors, shops, and customers to mix and match. Moving that Y will change all of that.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that we are constantly analyzing our safety system and experimenting with alternate options, and we're not going to change the system that we've been using for 8 years on a whim or without thinking that there is a very significant improvement in safety that warrants all the confusion, chaos, and cost associated with making such a change. At this point, though, we think our safety system is the best that we've found and I have no problem using it to self-rescue in the 40mph winds we regularly get in the gorge.

-Dan


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:00 am 
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Thanks dan. I have to admit I have also experienced a Number of death spirals on a single line safety system over the years.

Makes sense there is a balance that needs to be found between significant improvement that would warrant the conclusion of compatibility between older bars, parts and kites.

Thanks dan you are the only person I ever here back from north, thank you.

Go to our national forum and you will experience the ozone orgy love fest at its best.

North needs a representative on that forum. There is some serious north bashing going on right now.


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:13 am 
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Location: Utah ish
I went from a single front line system to the North system and was concerned at first, as I had always flown gear with a single line flag, because I ride in mountain winds as a snow kiter that may have 30 mph of variable.

I have "forced myself to use the safety at some hair ball times to prove it works, so I can feel more confident in my gear.

After several years (4+ now) on the twin front lines, this is my preferred system, many times after a front single line release I need to do line maintenance, and when you get dragged through the snow around trees you tend to release often to "save your kite", With the twin line I can just reset and relaunch, before I had to go to the kite and fix the issues and then relaunch. This saves me a lot of time.

Self landing may involve a walk up to the V in very powered conditions, but that is the only negative I have experienced.

I have flown several north kites( but not the Dice) on lower v bars like Ozone, and their is a difference in flight characteristic, but nothing that some changes in input and timing didn't also effect.


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Location: Belgiuim - Zeeland
another 2 sub zero sessions with the Dice 10m.

I tried the low end and i have to say that it is not bad at all, with my fly-radical L 139x43 (lightwind board) I was able to have fun at 17knots... nice :)

I still need to try again the high end of this kite with my small board but this kite is nice in the mid-low end

Until now I found 3 defects:
1. relaunch, it was very easy but only because I use the SS bar therefore I was able to pull the oh-shit handle... with a north bar, I am not sure if I was able to relaunch that easy
2. packing the kite... I am not used with this kite of deltish shape, it was much easier with the squared RPM
3. sometimes after a jump you go down very fast, therefore a helicopter loop is needed to slow down the landing when the jumps are high

Assets a lot... much more than 3 :)

I will keep you posted


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:10 am 
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1. How can you call this a problem by extrapolating from using a SS bar???

2. Deltaish....dude what planet are you from? Maybe the tapered wing tips you may mean rather than squared off. The dice is a very C arc in its plan shape? No delta man?

3. Fly the kite directly downwind at 12... Then redirect to 1230/1 then back across to land and it will out hang the rpm without a shadow of doubt. Once you dial it in in the right winds the hang time is surprisingly good and the distance covered. But you need wind. At its lower to mid range it's surfing or freestyle time. (You are on the wake style setting right)...surf setting she drops quick as she should.


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:41 pm 
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Location: Belgiuim - Zeeland
1. How can you call this a problem by extrapolating from using a SS bar???

- The see was flat and the wind was at 17/20knots, the kite was nose down at the center of the wind window by just pulling one side of the bar the kite was practically not moving. I was forced to pull the oh-shit handle in order to “overtwist” the kite and by doing that it came up fast and nice. However with the north bar it can be more complicated since there is no oh-shit handle therefore you need to grab the floater in somehow… that’s all


2. Deltaish....dude what planet are you from? Maybe the tapered wing tips you may mean rather than squared off. The dice is a very C arc in its plan shape? No delta man?

- I was just trying to explain that the Dice shape is difficult to fold compared to an RPM. I called deltaish and not delta to give a better idea.. and as you can see from the picture I was not that far off, but you are right it is a C-sh kite…

3. Fly the kite directly downwind at 12... Then redirect to 1230/1 then back across to land and it will out hang the rpm without a shadow of doubt. Once you dial it in in the right winds the hang time is surprisingly good and the distance covered. But you need wind. At its lower to mid range it's surfing or freestyle time. (You are on the wake style setting right)...surf setting she drops quick as she should.

- The Dice jumps much better, higher and it has a much longer hang-time compared to the RPM. Even in the its mid-low end it has a nice lift but with my actual technique I have the tendency to end up under the kite during the descending phase (with other kites this does not happen to me) but it is very easy to land nice and soft with an helicopter loop… no issue at all (and yes I fly the kite on the hard setting)


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:14 pm 
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Do you have an rpm plan shape from the same angle as the dice and bandit, interested that's all.

I'd say the dice isn't the easiest to relaunch, the deltas I've flown are much easier. I've also had a few times I couldn't get it around quickly even when fully depowered, so yeh it takes some technique so I'd support your findings there...then again I spent three years launching rebels and edge so compared to them it's apiece of cake.

I'm glad north left the end deflate on them. Sometimes when it's really nukin and you want to get off the beach quick it's a relief to deflate and just roll one to the other. Other than that it's the middle valve, just roll along the leading edge no probs. only one fold though, found with two I just can't get the small battens in a spot in can be comfortable packing it back in the bag. But they all fit with only one fold so not a prob.

Goes above your head... You keep that bar pulled in? It does accelerate quickly up (which is a blessing when doing powered loops). Found the best way to jump the dice is to load and pop with kite as it's moving through 11, then keep it directly in front of you at 12, then at the last couple of second move it to 130 then redirect back to land. Stops you from flying under it.


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 Post subject: Re: RPM vs Dice
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:25 pm 
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Location: Belgiuim - Zeeland
of course all time bar all in!!!!
i will try to jump as you suggest next week end... it should be very windy therefore I will try the high end :)


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