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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:42 pm 
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What is the relaunch like on strutless kites compared to lightwind kites with struts? I can imagine the saving in weight makes a considerable difference to the amount of wind required to keep it in the air, which is obviously a big plus for ultra lightwinds which are often all over the place.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:32 pm 
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ronnie wrote:
Greg's explanation of why he thinks the Cloud drifts so well.


I can see the characteristics described in the video being a benefit for wave riding, but when I tried the cloud out in flat water, this is exactly what I didn't like about the kite. When trying to stay upwind in very light wind on most kites, you hit a gust, you let the bar out a bit, the kite moves forward in the window. This pulls you upwind and you can take advantage of the gust.

With the cloud, you let the bar out in the gust and it does the opposite. It falls back in the window, just as shown in the video. In the video, he says the idea is for the canopyt to go "flat" when you let out the bar, but it actually goes "FLAP", not "flat" :D That's great for riding downwind in the surf, but if you want the ultimate lightwind kite for staying up wind, I don't think strutless is the best option.

I don't think the no strut concept is as much of a benefit as it first seems. The weight of the kite is low, but so is the projected area/total area. The kite can't be flat or have a high aspect ratio in order to keep the canopy shape without struts. The cloud is probably the lightest 17m, but it has much less projected area than a typical 17m. I'd be interested to see how it compares to other kites in weight/projected area.

My 18m with 7 struts stays in the air in less wind than I can get going on my full size raceboard. Maybe a strutless kite would stay in the air in even less wind, but it wouldn't add to my low end because it wouldn't have any more power (lower projected area) and it wouldn't go upwind nearly as well.

Like every aspect of the design, going strutless is a tradeoff with benefits and downsides.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:32 am 
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davesails7 wrote:
I can see the characteristics described in the video being a benefit for wave riding, but when I tried the cloud out in flat water, this is exactly what I didn't like about the kite. When trying to stay upwind in very light wind on most kites, you hit a gust, you let the bar out a bit, the kite moves forward in the window. This pulls you upwind and you can take advantage of the gust.

With the cloud, you let the bar out in the gust and it does the opposite. It falls back in the window, just as shown in the video. In the video, he says the idea is for the canopyt to go "flat" when you let out the bar, but it actually goes "FLAP", not "flat" :D That's great for riding downwind in the surf, but if you want the ultimate lightwind kite for staying up wind, I don't think strutless is the best option.

I don't think the no strut concept is as much of a benefit as it first seems. The weight of the kite is low, but so is the projected area/total area. The kite can't be flat or have a high aspect ratio in order to keep the canopy shape without struts. The cloud is probably the lightest 17m, but it has much less projected area than a typical 17m. I'd be interested to see how it compares to other kites in weight/projected area.

My 18m with 7 struts stays in the air in less wind than I can get going on my full size raceboard. Maybe a strutless kite would stay in the air in even less wind, but it wouldn't add to my low end because it wouldn't have any more power (lower projected area) and it wouldn't go upwind nearly as well.

Like every aspect of the design, going strutless is a tradeoff with benefits and downsides.

Finally somebody, who has the balls to tell the truth which I've been saying from beginning when I tested them.
Gigi;) can take all the credit for this kite development and he was warning about the downsides also,
but nobody paid attention :naughty:
I believe the Average Joe Kite Review result will be similar if they doing a none bios testing :?:

Finally here is a true winner over the Strutless and the Infinity without any Compromise and Hype :thumb:



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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:06 am 
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The problem is partly guys that never learned to Trim a sail.
Or don't want to do it. Want to sheet out the cloud to go upwind?
Sheet it out an inch or two, not 6" or a foot.
Duh.
If you aren't willing to learn a skill or try something new, don't. If you think it's fun to adjust or improve your sailing and riding techniques there are new world open to you all kinds of kites and boards, foils for air or for water etc.
And none are perfect for everyone, obviously.
But please, try to learn how to fly it before you diss.
------
Re: weight/PA it could be deceiving. Cloud PA might be lower by a bit, but it is still not low like a C kite, and the weight is dramatically less.
This flite kite being pimped here for example last year weighed >4.5kg, and most 17m+ leis are near 4, versus 3.2kg for last years cloud. New cloud is 2.7kg.
Think that impacts the ratio much?
It does indeed.
It makes it a whole different animal.
Not that it's everyone's cup of tea.
If the new flite is that much lighter, it will be better I bet.
But still a pound or so more than strutless...


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:50 am 
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When sheeting out the Cloud one wants to loose power, but the kite flies back towards the power zone. Isn't this a contradiction ?

:roll: :o :roll: :o


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:59 am 
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iKite123 wrote:
When sheeting out the Cloud one wants to loose power, but the kite flies back towards the power zone. Isn't this a contradiction ?

:roll: :o :roll: :o


Not necessarily - if it loses power because the surface goes "flap", then it will also increase drag - thus sit deeper in the window with less power.

But I have no idea if this is the case or not - only taken from the post from davesails7 :wink:

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:00 am 
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Hmmm, it seems there are a lot of "mixed emotions" both ways - but maybe not that evident what is good and what is not as good :roll:

Still very interesting, and looking forward to see how it will evolve :naughty:

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:14 am 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
Hmmm, it seems there are a lot of "mixed emotions" both ways - but maybe not that evident what is good and what is not as good :roll:

Still very interesting, and looking forward to see how it will evolve :naughty:

8) Peter


This makes sense...it is also not very unexpected that there are many different opinions about kites since there are so many other different types of kites.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Hi guys,

I have Clouds V1 in 8m, 13m and 17m sizes. They are different to fly at first, but once you get onto them, they work so well, it's hard for me to go back flying strutted kites.

I posted an item on another thread where there is an ongoing discussion about who has the "best" lightwind kite.....Even though I love my CLOUDS, they are not for everyone!
Because of that fact, I don't push them on anyone who is a "non-believer"! I do let other riders at my local beach try my CLOUDS and most of the folks liked them, some of them even bought CLOUDS, others didn't like it, so they keep riding their own kites, that's cool....

So how are struttless kites doing?....fine by me!

Regards,
Blake


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:16 pm 
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I have a Cloud 17m and while I've only used it snowkiting, I've been very impressed with it so far. It flys in a fart of wind and turns quick for it size. Reverse launches are really easy. Looking forward to testing it out in our summer light winds.


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