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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:30 pm 
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BWD wrote:
The problem is partly guys that never learned to Trim a sail.
Or don't want to do it. Want to sheet out the cloud to go upwind?
Sheet it out an inch or two, not 6" or a foot.
Duh.


DUH! :lol:

Ill give it another try when I get a chance and will keep exact measurements of my bar movements :wink:

I guess the bottom line is that no struts means a limited range of angle of attack where the kite will fly. You let the bar out, the canopy collapses, the kite drifts back until the angle attack increases enough to keep flying. This is a benefit or a problem depending on what you want to do.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:34 pm 
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Quote:
When sheeting out the Cloud one wants to loose power, but the kite flies back towards the power zone. Isn't this a contradiction ?

It is sheeted out, it gives less power, no contradiction.
If it is not sheeted in enough to make max lift, it doesn't matter that it is in power zone (until way overpowered).
Sheet in and it edge and the cloud makes power and moves forward in window, and you can head more upwind. Ride along on a reach with the Cloud luffing somewhat, even though it's sitting deeper in the power zone, it is not pulling hard.
Now back to the learning thing, about this power zone....
Why is there a power zone, why do we perceive this effect of a power zone?
Imagine riding on a reach with the kite at 45 degrees.
Is it in the power zone?
That depends.
If it is "in front" of you, with lines running almost 90deg to your track, it is not in the power zone, it is at the window edge.
If it is "behind" you, it is in the power zone, and will pull harder, and you may feel it is pulling you downwind.
What is the angle of attack?
At the window edge the AOA is low. Want to move the kite back in the window? Sheet in.
In the power zone, the AOA is high. Want to move kite forward? Sheet out.
The "power zone" concept basically describes how the AOA over the kite changes as the kite moves around in relation to the rider.
Moving the kite around the window is the "advanced" way of adjusting the kite's AOA, why with old C kites ( and to a degree new ones) you stomp the edge to force the kite forward to window edge to depower it, ride at it then turn away to to put it into more power.
The changes can be extreme, to choke power out of an overpowered kite, or load and pop to jump, or subtle, as in creating a wake that's not a straight line but more of a sine wave as you deal with chop or gusts and lulls. The way you edge or point the board can be the fine trim on the kite as well, moving the bar can be a pretty coarse adjustment with some bridles. With a true old school C from 10yrs ago, it's sort of the other way around, the bar throw and depower are quite small, and really using the board is required to get the most from the kite.
Further confusing things, struts that stabilize the canopy are like full battens in a windsurf sail, they keep some camber in the canopy so even at zero AOA it makes forward lift, in some cases leading to hindenburging out the front of the window.
So people are used to making coarse bar adjustments, and relying on the locked in camber of the canopy to keep the kite driving.
With no struts, sheet out and the canopy instantly loses part of its profile, flapping and reducing the lift, and letting the kite drift back in the window. But since it does not have the full camber, it does not pull hard or make much lift, it will sit back there where you put it.


Quote:
DUH! :lol:

Ill give it another try when I get a chance and will keep exact measurements of my bar movements :wink:

Good plan, I'm sure you have a micrometer sitting around somewhere... :P


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:40 am 
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BWD wrote:
Moving the kite around the window is the "advanced" way of adjusting the kite's AOA, why with old C kites ( and to a degree new ones) you stomp the edge to force the kite forward to window edge to depower it, ride at it then turn away to to put it into more power.


When riding at high speed, stomping the edge of the board appears to shoot the kite forward in the window, and in a small way it sometimes does. But the main effect of stomping the edge of the board is that it reduces the apparent wind effect on the wind window itself. At fast board speeds, the edge of the wind window shifts backward from the direction of travel (as the apparent wind direction shifts forward) and gives the impression that the kite is sitting back in the window. Suddenly stomping on the rail and abruptly slowing board speed shifts that apparent wind direction immediately toward the true wind direction, and we see the kite shooting forward relative to the direction of travel. The kite was flying right near the edge of the wind window the whole time, but the window moved. Additionally, the perceived depower from "forcing the kite to the edge of the window" is largely due to the significant decrease in the apparent wind speed achieved by slowing down board speed.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:15 am 
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That too, sometimes...


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:35 am 
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loco4viento,
your explanation makes perfect sense, had never thought about it in terms of apparent wind
Thanks :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:36 am 
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While we are waiting for the Average Joe test result on the C2 version of the Cloud, this interview with Greg the designer, illustrates the characteristics he built into the C1 Cloud and why he wanted those characteristics.

http://tinyurl.com/l33k8dg

The C2 is 14% lighter than the C1, has a thinner leading edge and a fixed bridle as obvious changes.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:53 pm 
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Rode a C2 12m a few times. What I loved: Very smooth power delivery. I can control the gusts with this kite better than any other kite I've flown. The speed of the kite. A buddy of mine calls it twitchy (14 yrs kiting)...I call it big fun (fairly new kiter > 100 sessions). Depower. When the gas is totally on, you can ease off the pedal. I've described this as taking a break on the water rather than putting the kite on the beach to take a break. You can literally ride relaxed with insane conditions. Very direct handling. Completely aware of the kite and where it is all the time. When I ride downwind or directly at the kite it stays in the air. In my limited experience most non-wave-specific kites hunt the water.

I'm a life long competitive sailor. The Cloud kites are the first kite I've flown that truly relates to a sail and the way sail trim works on a sailboat. I don't know if anyone else on the planet feels the way I do about this, but there it is.

What I don't love: I am unsure about wind range/wind conditions and variables. I want a kite that will pick up and rock at about 13-14mph (to take over from my 17m) and I don't know if the 12m has that low end in our variable (thermal/non-thermal, frontal, disturbed) wind conditions. In comparison to other kites, the C2 12m does feel like a larger kite. I can't say if it feels like 2m2 larger, but it does ride larger.

Big question is if I would buy one. I'm considering it as a very serious contender when I replace my low/mid-range 14m kite. My only question is about wind range. This is because, like everyone else that sees this sport as an interest and not a business (pro or shop) I need to limit myself to a two kite quiver. There are lots of options for this...is my 17M Flite and a C2 12m that quiver? That's the unanswerable question.

Hope this is helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:04 pm 
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Location: Hype-nosis Management Thong!
Randy, it is not needed to play games or hide the deficiencies of the strutless, you know it yourself it is a comprimise :!:
When all the people who are honest about it and they flown it or understanding the R&D of kites,
like Bill Hanson, Gigi;) & loco4viento;
than nobody can bullsh!t or hype about strutless, no matter how you tweak that f*cken BAR as an excuse :bye:


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:54 pm 
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and you could always try for a 2013 flite on closeout, it weighs as much as aummm, so it won't blow away on the beach :lol: :lol: :lol:

But seriously,
randy I think we speak the same language...
I'd say if you want to be powered in 13-14mph, the 17 is the ticket.
With the C1s at least, though, you don't have a whole lot of headroom from there.
But you do have insurance against dropouts or long lulls, since you may still be hauling ass in 12 and able to hold ground in 8. Or go upwind with the right board.
If frequent gusts are hitting 17mph, though, that's probably the limit.
And you would probably be ok with a 12, whether it is a BRM cloud or just about other 12 that suits your style.
So if you are light and prioritize high end, go 12 maybe, and if heaver or more worried about lulls,
the 14.5? Haven't had the chance to fly c2 so probably can't say more of use about them.

If you really are set on only 2 kites though, my theory is that unless you are talking a 5 and a 7, you really may want the smaller one to have struts.
As I was writing earlier, a benefit of struts is that they lock in some camber to varying extent depending on design, most obviously with slingshot's "splitstruts" which actually have a top panel that's part of the upper canopy surface. This camber preserves some lift for a sheeted-out, very low AOA, while the added canopy tension from struts preserves a little more steering ability when overpowered and sheeted way out. Plus in the wind range of small kites, it is not such a handicap if the kite weighs a few grams more.
While I really like the clouds, I still think a kite with struts is going to be more comfortable when significantly overpowered. Seems obvious. It can be fun to ride the 17 in 15+ for a little while, but not all day, you either get tired or are limited by leaving the kite luffing most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:56 pm 
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Aummm wrote:
Randy, it is not needed to play games or hide the deficiencies of the strutless, you know it yourself it is a comprimise :!:
When all the people who are honest about it and they flown it or understanding the R&D of kites,
like Bill Hanson, Gigi;) & loco4viento;
than nobody can bullsh!t or hype about strutless, no matter how you tweak that f*cken BAR as an excuse :bye:


@Aummm: Sorry to upset you. I'm not a kite pimp, I admitted I have limited experience and I questioned whether I would even buy the kite. You :angryfire: flamed :angryfire: me for taking this approach?

I don't understand R&D of kites, I don't know about technical deficiencies of strutless, I am not a kite designer.

I'm just an old dude that's new to the sport that was willing to say I liked a particular kite (that you clearly don't like).

Take the target of my back and point your flamethrower elsewhere.

Wishing you fair winds.


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