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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:05 am 
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@BWD - I hear you.
Quote:
...you really may want the smaller one to have struts...
Thanks for the advice. I can easily take my Flight to 15 or 16 and switch down. I just enjoy the performance of the smaller kites and want to get on them as soon as I can (based on all the dynamics of course).

Thanks again,

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:53 am 
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randycasburn wrote:
@Aummm: Sorry to upset you. I'm not a kite pimp, I admitted I have limited experience and I questioned whether I would even buy the kite.

I don't understand R&D of kites, I don't know about technical deficiencies of strutless, I am not a kite designer.

I'm just an old dude that's new to the sport that was willing to say I liked a particular kite (that you clearly don't like).
@Randy: I'm sorry, I thought you were one of the test flyer for "Average Joe Kite Review" because I saw you a lot in that thread.
So finally I agree with the suggestion of BWD "kite with struts is going to be more comfortable when significantly overpowered." :thumb:
even if it weighs more for range and efficiency.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:57 am 
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randycasburn wrote:
Rode a C2 12m a few times. What I loved: Very smooth power delivery. I can control the gusts with this kite better than any other kite I've flown. The speed of the kite. A buddy of mine calls it twitchy (14 yrs kiting)...I call it big fun (fairly new kiter > 100 sessions). Depower. When the gas is totally on, you can ease off the pedal. I've described this as taking a break on the water rather than putting the kite on the beach to take a break. You can literally ride relaxed with insane conditions. Very direct handling. Completely aware of the kite and where it is all the time. When I ride downwind or directly at the kite it stays in the air. In my limited experience most non-wave-specific kites hunt the water.

I'm a life long competitive sailor. The Cloud kites are the first kite I've flown that truly relates to a sail and the way sail trim works on a sailboat. I don't know if anyone else on the planet feels the way I do about this, but there it is.

What I don't love: I am unsure about wind range/wind conditions and variables. I want a kite that will pick up and rock at about 13-14mph (to take over from my 17m) and I don't know if the 12m has that low end in our variable (thermal/non-thermal, frontal, disturbed) wind conditions. In comparison to other kites, the C2 12m does feel like a larger kite. I can't say if it feels like 2m2 larger, but it does ride larger.

Big question is if I would buy one. I'm considering it as a very serious contender when I replace my low/mid-range 14m kite. My only question is about wind range. This is because, like everyone else that sees this sport as an interest and not a business (pro or shop) I need to limit myself to a two kite quiver. There are lots of options for this...is my 17M Flite and a C2 12m that quiver? That's the unanswerable question.

Hope this is helpful.


Its the first review I have seen of the C2 by someone who has flown it.

I have no problem believing you.

There will be more reviews even after the Average Joe's report on the 17m Cloud C2.

All kites are a compromise. The C2 will suit some people and not others - same as every other kite.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:35 am 
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@Aummm :
Quote:
I thought you were one of the test flyer for "Average Joe Kite Review"


I am. Perhaps you are mixing apples and oranges. This is not about that thread OR light wind kiting. It was about riding a 12m2 kite in appropriately powered conditions (for me). The review on the 17m kite will come from XLKites.

Advise would have been a lot better than your vitriol (which I don't understand at all).


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:29 pm 
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Peter_Frank wrote:
What do those having tried the strutless kites say now in 2014 ?

Is it like the Sigma shape - not really any benefits, so it has died out again ?

Or is it just the opposite - a LOT of advantages, but not many has discovered the gold yet ?

Lets hear some facts about the ups and downs now :rollgrin:

Curious :thumb:

8) Peter Frank
I guess we could finally admit the strutless didn't make it to the main stream,
just like the Bruno's Ultra Flat Bow concept and Zig-Zag Wing, no benefit at all to present day.
That's the conclusion I came up with after riding with my friends all these kites above. :decision:

H


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:12 pm 
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Hunqi wrote:
...I guess we could finally admit the strutless didn't make it to the main stream.


Looks that way for now....but then this just hit the street today: http://www.thekiteboarder.com/2014/03/liquid-forces-new-solo-kite-evolves-from-strutless-technology/


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:32 pm 
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Wow. Liquid Force is releasing a single strut kite...how revolutionary. I am sure they appreciate the Airush Lithium One doing it first to give them an example. :lol:

Just kidding. I am sure it will be completely new and innovative. :roll:

I think strutless and less struts are here to stay. Sure, there are compromises and they don't fit every application, but once people figure out what they like them for, they will fit right into the mainstream.

I got my first hands on look at a 17M Cloud this weekend, and I was very impressed.


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:55 pm 
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Really, why are people so eager to deny evolution?
Remember the first bow kites, slow as molasses, mega bar pressure with pullies on the bar, and on the kite, and hanging in space in between?
Who still flies a 2006 crossbow, or would want to?
Not many, since modern C's, modern SLE's, deltas, sigmas, foils, and of course, the newer cabrinha bows, to name a few, all vastly out perform them.
Still, the bow kite, conceived by Bruno and brought to market first by cab, taught us a lot that reshaped the sport.
-better wind range
-better relaunch
-more efficient/higher PA
-high depower without losing grunt or needing a 5th line

Even if in 4 years there are no strutless kites, so far they have:
-really reinforced the importance of light weight in performance on low end and responsiveness.
This is probably the most significant. I just hope it doesn't lead to a materials arms race making kites more fragile and unaffordable.
-given designers a chance to take a fresh look at how they can support kite canopies. Fresh ideas are fuel.
-made it much easier to travel with 3 or 4 kites instead of 1 or 2: a strutless 17 weighs what most 9 or 10m kites weigh. You could practically fit a whole quiver in a carry-on.

I've mentioned several times what I see as the the downside: lack of penetration to window edge and steering response when strongly overpowered and undersheeted. Most of the time it's reasonable to just go to the next smaller kite, but that's not always an option. The BRM c2 with its new bridle and thinner LE may address this, but I still would wonder how it might catch you in a loop, for example.
Does the LF 1 strut address this area while keeping some benefits of strutless inspiration?
Maybe the 1-strut will be the new 3-strut.
Maybe some day there will be a way to zip on a strut to extend range of a strutless kite, or add battens (not that I am eager for battens, unless they really help).
There are more bridle possibilities also...
What about another new design, the flysurfer peak?
What if there was a kite like that, that wouldn't catch water behind its LE?
Will single skin foils and strutless LEI's converge?
What's next?
Who really knows?
Wait and see I guess....


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:23 pm 
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KYLakeKiter wrote:
Wow. Liquid Force is releasing a single strut kite...how revolutionary. I am sure they appreciate the Airush Lithium One doing it first to give them an example. :lol:

Just kidding. I am sure it will be completely new and innovative. :roll:

I think strutless and less struts are here to stay. Sure, there are compromises and they don't fit every application, but once people figure out what they like them for, they will fit right into the mainstream.

I got my first hands on look at a 17M Cloud this weekend, and I was very impressed.


Not that it can be compared directly, but then again - there are more similarities than at first look...

Windsurf sails started without many battens - then with faster racesails they should be fully cambered and stiff, and even freeriders chose these a few years.

Then the goal was to get almost battenless for wave and freestyle sails particulary, really soft and light and simple - and even the racers went for lighter simpler designs with full battens but not cambers.

Somewhat it reminds me of what we are discussing here regarding how many struts ?

Not that it changes anything - I just came to think about it.

(And it ended somewhere in between, not battenless not fully cambered, in windsurfing)

8) Peter


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 Post subject: Re: How are strutless kites doing ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:45 am 
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The C2 seems to be the first iteration of a production kite and soon we should get a group of Average Joe opinions on it. That should let us know roughly where the strutless kite has progressed to since the first production one was bought a year ago.

I'm interested in all new ideas. You never know what will work until you try.

This was a kite Bruno made in 2006 with straight struts joined to the canopy with a panel. The video looks speeded up a bit.
http://www.inflatablekite.com/sitebow/f ... W_kite.wmv

Lots of people thought that delta shaped paper planes would always be best for throwing distance.



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